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Thread: Boa Deaths

  1. #21
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    This is absolutely a topic that needs to be explored because people are losing boas that are both genetically irreplaceable and sentimentally irreplaceable. And these boas are worth $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

    I can't imagine how thawing a rodent would adversely affect a boa. Even if you let it sit out all day long while you're at work and feed at night, does an extra 8 hours have the ability to kill a boa? That doesn't make sense to me. After all, they will scavenge in the wild!

    I thaw with very warm water while they're in a ziplock bag, but I don't do it for fear of hurting my boas with another method, I do it because it's friggin convenient!

    Whatever it is that's causing these problems, we eventually have to figure it out. My best guess is that it has something to do with funky bacteria and/or fat. Afterall, ANYONE who's ever ordered from Rodent*** can attest to the fact that sometimes their rodents are covered in feces, urine, bedding, and they wreak of rotting death. So that's one check for funky bacteria!

    When I called Rodent*** recently to discuss their business practices, the person I spoke with indicated that they receive rodents from multiple suppliers in addition to the rodents they raise on their own. This was different from the prior time I talked to them several months ago when they said that they own multiple facilities that are located away from each other but all of the rodents are brought to one place to ship. I also found out that SUPPOSEDLY, ANY rodent not bred by Rodent*** is sold to other rodent suppliers who then resell them. He indicated that if you place an order on the internet, or by phone, you only get rodents produced by them. So maybe the problem lies in-house??

    This raised multiple questions in my head (it's how I found out they supply other rodent sellers). Two of them were: How? And why?

    I didn't ask this but it makes sense that they probably supply other rodent suppliers with rodents that they raised to supplement those that come in from other sources and are amazingly kept separate from their stock. So perhaps the reason others have seen this same problem from other sources is that their rodents were produced by Rodent***.

    I've also been told that Rodent*** purchases rodents from a company (that I won't name here for Ed's sanity) that supplies pharmaceutical companies with rodents to test on. Being in the pharma industry, I can tell you that the largest and most profitable sector is the one that tries to reverse the effects of the American diet! Cardiovascular and metabolic diseases! So these companies raise fat rats and genetically obese rats (or Zuckers) that are diabetic to sell to the pharma companies. Well, the pharma companies don't order 100% of the rats produced, so these rats are then sold to companies like Rodent***. Could they be the problem? Well, if you believe what I was told when I called, no, they can't be. Because Rodent*** doesn't mix those rodents with their own supply to sell to people placing orders on the net, or by phone... ahem... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

    Also, when Rodent*** receives rodents from at least one supplier, they're frozen into a big solid block. This block has to be thawed, separated into individual rodents, and then refrozen (ever noticed rodents from Rodent*** look like they were frozen stiff while falling out of a plane? lol). When these blocks are frozen, how long does it take for the rodents in the middle of the block to finally freeze? Do they? Also, when they're thawed (the first time - not by the end consumer), how long do the rodents on the outside sit, warming up, waiting for the rodents in the middle to thaw, before they're refrozen? I think that this, combined with a long thaw time by the end user COULD uncover a problem. Also, NUMEROUS rodents arrive missing limbs, tails, heads, and split in half. What if in an effort to package the rodents quickly, they're ripping them apart while still somewhat frozen in the block. Then, urine, feces, and other bacteria just seep all into everything. Maybe that explains the rancid smell??

    In the end, what it comes down to is that there are SO MANY FRIGGIN POSSIBILITIES AS TO WHY BOAS ARE DYING FROM RODENT*** RODENTS THAT IT'S RIDICULOUS!!!! Why chance it??!!! Put some extra money into quality food for your boas. It's worth it, trust me!

    jb

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanamaRed
    The thing that has me worried is rumor of some of the rodent suppliers buying in Lab surplus rodents. I don't know if any of this is true or not. What is lab surplus? Are they animals that have been tested on?? Because thats not what I'm looking for.
    Ed, from my understanding, any rodent that is brought into a pharma company for testing must be destroyed. Not killed... destroyed.

    The "lab rodents" are rodents that were produced by a company and did not get purchased by a pharma company for testing, so they're excess supply for the seller. Never seen a lab or a test.

    Hope that helps. I know MANY people have wondered about this as I've seen this posted on several boards, multiple times.

    jb

  3. #23
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    I read that site awhile back and have been following up since then and even that site has says this
    "The problem is that Boas can not digest fat like a Python. You can give Pythons fatty rodents and pigs and they will do fine, give them to a Boa and you are going to have major digestive problems. "
    Thats one of the reason i was wanting more info from Kenny about the GTP's dying and from any other persons that might have more knowledge about the python's and Fat rats
    I thirst for knowledge
    Steve
    C.E.R.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanamaRed View Post
    More info on fat rats here:

    http://www.basicallyboas.com/whats_new.html

    The thing that has me worried is rumor of some of the rodent suppliers buying in Lab surplus rodents. I don't know if any of this is true or not. What is lab surplus? Are they animals that have been tested on?? Because thats not what I'm looking for.

    Another thing to think about is prices.. We all want a good deal right? Well What about companies that make the cost of rodents super cheap, seems like a great deal, but then you pay $100 for shipping and you come to find out they ship the box of rodents ground, and not express... Their shipping charges were more like $35-40 for ground.. So you paid say $1 per rat and got 50 rats, shipping only cost the company $40 but you paid $100, so the real cost of the rats were $2.20 each plus shipping not $1.. Not as good of a deal as you thought...

  4. #24
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    Just thought about something. I do know of another scenario involving a python, a white lip. Dead, b/c of Rodent*** rodents.

    As for GTP's, I think (and Mike correct me if I'm wrong) Mike is referring more to the retics, burms, afrocks, etc.. Not the dainty and fragile GTP's! lol (ohhh I'm gonna take crap for that... lol And no, I won't pet one at night to see if they really are dainty and fragile).

    Hmmm... perhaps it has to do with the appropriate amount of time between meals. GTP's and boas, fewer meals. Terrestrial pythons and colubrids, eating (and pooping) machines! Maybe they are spoiling...?? Maybe the fat is spoiling?

    jb

  5. #25
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    Thank you all....I have found a reasonable rat/rabbit breeder - Catskills Feeders. Has anyone heard of them before?

  6. #26
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    I finally read the replies.......

    My fist GTP stopped eating during the end of winter. Being a male I paid it no never mind. But then began to behave oddly...not curling on it's perch...going to the ground but never exhibited the same symptoms at the other one that had neurological issues. My retics and balls are doing fine.

    Today my albno het snow is acting funny and tail twitching???? Paranoia???

    Another thing about the xxl mice, when defrosted, I roll them in a towel to get rid of the moisture. Many of them rip open and their inside become exposed. There is skin breakdown mins after defrosting. What does that tell you?

    Today is feed day and I will be breaking out the Co2 instead of the freezer stock. The live feeders wont last a month. Has anyone tried Catskills Feeders?

    Thanks,

  7. #27
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    Ed,

    I addressed the shipping costs with the supplier and the same old "cost of materials and shipping" came up. Then they ship it ground....5 days. The last batch came ice-less and 10% thawed. They said they would refund the the difference but also said refreezing was fine. Thus explaining the skin breakdown I experienced.

    Oner GTP died on it's own. The last one, with neurological issues was euthanized and submitted for necropsy.

    Thanks,

  8. #28
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    Default Boa Deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by PanamaRed View Post
    More info on fat rats here:

    http://www.basicallyboas.com/whats_new.html

    The thing that has me worried is rumor of some of the rodent suppliers buying in Lab surplus rodents. I don't know if any of this is true or not. What is lab surplus? Are they animals that have been tested on?? Because thats not what I'm looking for.

    Another thing to think about is prices.. We all want a good deal right? Well What about companies that make the cost of rodents super cheap, seems like a great deal, but then you pay $100 for shipping and you come to find out they ship the box of rodents ground, and not express... Their shipping charges were more like $35-40 for ground.. So you paid say $1 per rat and got 50 rats, shipping only cost the company $40 but you paid $100, so the real cost of the rats were $2.20 each plus shipping not $1.. Not as good of a deal as you thought...

    JB covered this answer ,I'd like to ad a little something to it.

    Some of these Rats and Mice have been genetically developed for use in
    specialty areas of medicine . For instance rats are bred to have or mimic
    health issues fat/obesity/cholesterol/Heart related issues or medical problems.
    Like Hyper tension, Sugar Diabetes, other heart and health problems.
    That's why Zucker Rats are huge and Fat, but also some strains of
    Hooded Rats seem to have been developed for these reasons and
    medical testing as well.

    So I believe that's where a certain type of fatty
    problem occurs in those rats.

  9. #29
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    Default Since I have been using Rodent ***

    Now Im all worried....I have had no issues as of yet, but this all scares me, I would hate to loose any snake in my collection due to something like bad rats. Can anyone direct me to another supplier that hasnt had these issues? Thks.

    Paul
    [url]www.designerboas.net[/url]
    Paul Harb

  10. #30
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    So glad I stumbled upon this thread. I had a litter of 31 boas this year and lost 28 of them to date... it appears that the last three are going to make it... The boas were born mid April, my supplier for feeders has always provided me with quality product and I believe that there must have been circumstances that caused this batch of rat pups to go bad. I still use the same supplier and have had no problems since.

    I believe that this particular batch which was frozen after being euthanized must have thawed on the day of delivery, my son made the pick up and just put everything in the freezer when he got home. I spoke to a few people about it and they all thought there was no way that the feeders could cause this problem... however this was the first litter born and none of the other litters that came subsequently were fed from this batch of feeders and I never lost a baby from the other litters.

    It was a tragedy and I am still sick about it... but at least I have confirmation that this was most likely the cause. Could I have been more diligent? perhaps... I will try to be more so in the future, but at the very least it is something to watch for....

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