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  1. #1
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    Default Nicaquatalombian

    I have pondered this for a long time and the thread on the Roswells inspired me to find out what others think about this:

    The name Colombian has been abused to the point of pointlessness, every boa that I see at a pet store is labeled as a Colombian and often have pastel in front of that.

    Here is the main body of this question....As I see it shield Bcc Guyana, Suriname, N.Brazil are for the most part the same boa. What I want to know are your thoughts on how a boa from the islands off of Honduras and Guatemala can be the same as a boa from west of the Andes be the same animal?

    Do you think that some of these boas from Sonora, to the hog islands should deserve different classification?

    Should basin boas from Colombia be classified as Bcc?

    I am interested to hearing peoples thoughts on this...fun stuff
    Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day drinking.

    Joel Thomas

  2. #2
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    Well, I saw some of those threads discussing Colombians. One in particular brought up Sharon Moore's line. I always refer to my two as "Sharon Moore Colombians", because they just don't fit the general consensus of what "Colombians" are supposed to look like. There's no way to know what exactly they are or what was in those initial shipments... However, they all came from Colombia. If they are basin boas, they very well might be BCC or natural intergrades. If I did scale counts on each of mine, I would bet my bottom dollar they would come up with those matching some BCC. However, I don't consider them as such because no one knows exactly what they are.

    I have heard many times what determines a boa ssp./locality is the sum of it's parts: Scale, color and saddle counts, morphological features such as head shape... Most of Sharon's "Select Colombians" fit those criteria of BCC, but I will never advertise them as BCC. Essentially they are a distinct line of boa derived from line breeding handpicked imports. They breed true to the "type" and traits that Sharon selected them for. I've talked to her many times about this and that is what she told me.

    When it comes to breeding those boas, I will only breed from her lines, but that makes outcrossing or outbreeding so much more difficult for me is that I'm not fully aware of how big or diverse that genepool is... Actual locality BCC seem to fair much better? That being said, I do like working with this line and would like to preserve it as best I can. They have a unique temperament, as well. Very docile.

    As for classification, I think we might need to reexamine some of these ssp. and localities, not only for scale and saddle counts, but how they act and behave as well? That's my input as a newbie, I'm still learning like everyone else.

  3. #3
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    Default

    From what I understand taxonomy is a very complicated process and with recent genetic testings has become even more complicated. I've talked to several experienced herpetologists and they've mentioned that back in the day they used to classify animals based on physical characteristics, but nowadays genetics has changed everything. Animals that they used to consider completely different have been found to be almost identical in their genetic characteristics and vice-versa. Also genetic technology is continuously changing, ergo their results are also changing. So to answer your question, it's hard to justify whether or not a Honduran or an island boa can be considered its own species. One thing is for sure though that they are definitely different animals than Colombians or shield BCC.

    As far as what you said about Guyana, Suriname, and Brazilians being the same animal, I'm not sure I fully agree with that. Although I agree that their genetic make-up is most likely very similar, they have very distinct phenotypes. It's hard to ignore their very unique physical traits and therefore it would be equally hard to classify them as the same animal.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali View Post
    From what I understand taxonomy is a very complicated process and with recent genetic testings has become even more complicated. I've talked to several experienced herpetologists and they've mentioned that back in the day they used to classify animals based on physical characteristics, but nowadays genetics has changed everything. Animals that they used to consider completely different have been found to be almost identical in their genetic characteristics and vice-versa. Also genetic technology is continuously changing, ergo their results are also changing. So to answer your question, it's hard to justify whether or not a Honduran or an island boa can be considered its own species. One thing is for sure though that they are definitely different animals than Colombians or shield BCC.

    As far as what you said about Guyana, Suriname, and Brazilians being the same animal, I'm not sure I fully agree with that. Although I agree that their genetic make-up is most likely very similar, they have very distinct phenotypes. It's hard to ignore their very unique physical traits and therefore it would be equally hard to classify them as the same animal.
    *facepalm*
    Silly me, left out genotyping!

  5. #5
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    Default

    The Sharon Moore Colombians are a great example of BCC from Amazonian Colombia..... Unfortunately there aren't a great deal of BCC getting imported from Colombia......

    As far is taxonomy is concerned.... I revisit is in order for sure..... Genetic studies could really crystalize this gray area..... It would be nice to take all the myth and opinion and replace it with some actual facts....... I think the results would be really suprising....... Especially some REAL data regarding where the ranges of each ssp really are..

    If it ever happens I propose we set up a pool... Kind of like a football game.... and we could each bet on our own theories... Winner takes All...LOL
    [CENTER][SIZE="5"][FONT="Times New Roman"][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://www.surinamboas.com/"]Visit SURINAMBOAS.COM[/URL][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/CENTER]

  6. #6
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    Just for fun... I'll attempt a scale count on my adult male. I have a few of his sheds to get that practice in. The female will have to wait.

    Outdated? Probably... but everything else keys up!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyudsai View Post
    If it ever happens I propose we set up a pool... Kind of like a football game.... and we could each bet on our own theories... Winner takes All...LOL
    LOL I think I like the sound of that. To make it fair though we'll have to get a third party to do the testing.

  8. #8
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    Default

    Not to divert the topic to Sharon’s’ line…I think Sharon’s line can cause confusion and that’s why not one locality breeder I know of has taken the plunge into her bloodline, but a morpher can do a lot with that line and I don’t think a locale keeper will bat an eye at it.

    I have no intentions on putting that line into a termed BCC… not to preserve the bloodlines but simply I doubt they would be welcomed into the collections of the BCC entourage so why bother? That line is not for the faint at heart, BCC people don’t want it in their lines and squeamish holier than thou morphers think its still 1997 with their “I would never knowingly cross a BCC into morphs”.

    I don’t dwell into BCC genealogy too much as I’ve seen the “experts” on here battle it out. I personally think from seeing some of the animals and depending on my human sensory organs that Suris, Guyanese and N. Brazil are the same. Some lines have been refined to have long peaks or other phenotypical traits but other than that they look the same to me. I’ve seen purple Suris and I’ve seen Guyanese with pinched saddles and large thin pointy peaks. Both examples could have easily been labeled to fit the wants of the buyer.

    Let’s face it there are a lot of flippers selling locality boas on KS. Can we really trust pet shops and flippers who need to move stock to not give the boas a more appealing name to move the product? CocaCola will move out the store a lot faster than Tab and if you have the labling machine

    Say I decide to call a flipper and put in a request I am shopping around for a Suri, what’s to stop them from labeling a boa they bought as a Guyanese to Suri to make the sale? especially if the Guyana he/she has can pass for a Suri? We are talking about someone who is in a business and needs to pay the bills. This is not a person who put their hearts into raising animals and breeding them. The fruit of their labors does not exist in their hearts only I need to move these animals to make room for the next lot of boas I got a great deal on last week.

    I’m not a locality person but if I were to get into locality projects I would be very skeptical with a lot of the stock out there and boas posted here that came from these petshops/flippers.

    To date I have one outstanding Suri from Charles and one day I will look for a male but it will be only from a well known reputable breeder (there are plenty on RI). I will sleep better with that purchase but at the end of the day I am bound to calling them what they were sold to me as even if a villager in Surinam would beg to differ.

    Now Perus, thats different lol.
    Alex Burgos

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by KuttingEdge View Post
    I donít dwell into BCC genealogy too much as Iíve seen the ďexpertsĒ on here battle it out. I personally think from seeing some of the animals and depending on my human sensory organs that Suris, Guyanese and N. Brazil are the same. Some lines have been refined to have long peaks or other phenotypical traits but other than that they look the same to me. Iíve seen purple Suris and Iíve seen Guyanese with pinched saddles and large thin pointy peaks. Both examples could have easily been labeled to fit the wants of the buyer.
    While I agree that some line have been produced just to accentuate those physical traits, there have been documented photographs of those animals in their natural environment, without any involvement of any breeder, and they definitely display different characteristics.

  10. #10
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    Default

    I think alot of people didnt touch those BCC because there has been this idea that BCC from colombia look like bci.... and there is so much BS going around the industry regarding Colombian BCC.... Like I said in another post.... we get very few boas from Amazonian Colombia... because that region is so remote.... THe Southern part of the Colombian Andes is pretty much occupied by narcoterrorist factions.... That region blocks the Amazon Basin from Metropolitan Colombia.... Most of the Boas that come from Colombia are from the North Side of the Andes... hence all the BCI


    People get all nervous about this bloodline because they have some resemblance to Shield BCC.... but why is that so far fetched??.... SHield boas don't just stop at the Border..... I don't know too much data about those boas... but I don't see any less evidence of their providence than other bloodlines in circulation..... WHat we need to stop doing is glancing at a boa and saying "That's not a Colombian boa" because they don't look like our idea of what they should look like.......... We need to be more open... and realize how little all of us really know about our boas providence...... Importation data has NEVER been very reliable.....


    If you like your boa.. then that's all that matters
    [CENTER][SIZE="5"][FONT="Times New Roman"][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://www.surinamboas.com/"]Visit SURINAMBOAS.COM[/URL][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
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