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  1. #61
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    I have been perplexed by something for quite a while and it just became clear...I guess if you can't see regional differences (trends) in the boa it would explain the push you guys are making for more general labels.
    LOL... By general labels you mean just Bcc and that label would not fit most of the Bcc that are out there and mislabeled as Suri or Guyana....you are saying that you have the magical ability to let us all know how to tell the difference and you have not shared All in good fun.

    What is it that you are calling a "regional difference"...the one that I apparently can not see?

    I am frustrated in the collection and importation data resulting in how an animal is labeled based upon it's looks and I am gathering that you want more specific labels....well so do I, please tell me how we can accomplish this from this day forward. Of course we would have to back up many generations of Bcc and throw all that out because most of the "popular" lines are regionally different if I am understanding your point.

    I just feel we will never get our "locale" data correct and look for ways to improve on this.....I will still call animals Suri or Peruvian based on the best information that I can get on the boa.

    Do you think that when a Suriname is labeled a Pokigron that it came from there other than being exported from there, yes it was probably collected with in a 100 miles in many directions....maybe even more, that makes it a Pokigron?

    All the Pucallpa and Iquitos Peru bCC were collected in those "locales" I am sure they are not....what is the regional difference there?

    Please know I am looking for input not taking stabs.
    Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day drinking.

    Joel Thomas

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by bns View Post
    I have been perplexed by something for quite a while and it just became clear...I guess if you can't see regional differences (trends) in the boa it would explain the push you guys are making for more general labels.


    Noone has the true ability to see these regional differences unless thay have been working with boas exstensively in South America...... all other experience that has been gained stateside is really suspect.....

    Here's a good analogy.....

    Imagine you have a chef... that wants to learn how to cook CHinese food.... so he goes and trains in a restaurant in Ohio... Yes this is a take out chinese restaurant that may show him a taste of China..... But it's an American version of CHinese food that has been tainted to fit the needs of American Customers........

    THe only way you can find the true essence of Chinese regional cuisine.. is to actually go there.....

    I used to think I had a good grasp of what the reional differences were in BCC..... but I had come to the realization that my knowledge of this has been misguided by the impropriety of the flawed system of the past ....ie importing/ mislabelling/ and fudgery............ I've decided to look at these things with a more suspect approach...... and question labels more......

    But in the end.... it really doesnt matter if my boa came from Pokigron, or Georgetown.... if these are 2 boas that I want to breed together to produce an amazing designer redtail... than I will.... and I will be forthcoming with the details of that breeding........ I definitely use the classic "bred my a friend who wants to stay anonymous" LOL ....
    [CENTER][SIZE="5"][FONT="Times New Roman"][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://www.surinamboas.com/"]Visit SURINAMBOAS.COM[/URL][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
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  3. #63
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    I have been perplexed by something for quite a while and it just became clear...I guess if you can't see regional differences (trends) in the boa it would explain the push you guys are making for more general labels.
    Not that I'm looking for a general label.. I honestly can't see a better way to label them presently.. This is just discussion.. Some of it for the sake of getting the brain going..

    If I were still keeping a lot of locality boas I'd be looking for the ones I can trace back to a point of origin to the best of my ability..

    The point is more that there is no real typical look, some may have what we think is a typical appearance but it only takes a few that don't look typical to throw the whole typical look think right in the garbage.

    The other point is that most of them really aren't different within that region talking about them being the same SSP of Boa Constrictor Constritor.. Not that I would agree with breeding a Peruvian to a Suriname there are mountains that separate them and have prevented them from naturally breeding.

    But I don't see how it would really be different to breed a Suriname from the northern most part of Suriname to a Suriname from the southern part of Suriname, than breeding a Guyana to a Suriname.

    The real difference is the market and what one will get for their efforts because the mother and father had a different name stamped on the receipt they came with... If they do it in the wild whats wrong with doing it in captivity? A boa born in Guyana and captured in Surname is still called a Suriname boa here in the US. It all makes me think we are missing the point to some extent.... The names are all made up by us trying to shrink classification down...

    Wish I had the time and money to have a more hands on study of it all.. Actually going there and seeing whats what how far one might travel, when they naturally breed, if colors and patterns had anything to do with what kind of area any given boa might live in.. etc... I like the science of it science is all about asking the questions others are looking past...
    Ed Lilley
    www.constrictorsnw.com

    Check my available snakes at this link:
    http://www.reptileinsider.com/classi...panamared.html

    I rejoined facebook... I don't feel good about it...



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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel_Thomas View Post
    LOL... By general labels you mean just Bcc and that label would not fit most of the Bcc that are out there and mislabeled as Suri or Guyana....you are saying that you have the magical ability to let us all know how to tell the difference and you have not shared All in good fun.

    What is it that you are calling a "regional difference"...the one that I apparently can not see?

    I am frustrated in the collection and importation data resulting in how an animal is labeled based upon it's looks and I am gathering that you want more specific labels....well so do I, please tell me how we can accomplish this from this day forward. Of course we would have to back up many generations of Bcc and throw all that out because most of the "popular" lines are regionally different if I am understanding your point.

    I just feel we will never get our "locale" data correct and look for ways to improve on this.....I will still call animals Suri or Peruvian based on the best information that I can get on the boa.

    Do you think that when a Suriname is labeled a Pokigron that it came from there other than being exported from there, yes it was probably collected with in a 100 miles in many directions....maybe even more, that makes it a Pokigron?

    All the Pucallpa and Iquitos Peru bCC were collected in those "locales" I am sure they are not....what is the regional difference there?

    Please know I am looking for input not taking stabs.

    Stabs are ok, I took one and lmao during and after. (but it may have merit...)

    I think our definition of 'region' is hindering progress...I said: I think I could do a pretty good job of putting 50 wild caught boas into their REGION -within the ''northern shield''. Region not locale.

    I'm not a writter and I'm not going to publish a book on the trends. To make it more difficult to put into words, boas are a sum of their parts
    (head shape/body shape/tail length/markings etc; and more...somewhat intangible, like taking someone herpin and trying to explain what exactly you noticed that gave a well camo'd, partially hidden critter away.

    Look at it this way, would you confuse a Col bcc (or any boa from the west side of South America) with one from the eastern part of South America?
    Now, putting a proper label on 50 Suriname/Guyana boas would be difficult if not impossible to get 100% correct, traits assigned by
    hobbiests or 'bag pullers' are found in the REGION - Do these traits 'trend' one way or another based on where they are found? Yes. Does this trend fall on a line
    between Suriname/Guyana? No.

    I'm sure Marc will come on with some dot dot dot and dot dot dot on how we don't know what is all out there and he would be correct. But even without some geo boundry
    there will be trends and if you look across the 'northern shield' from east to west of what is known, these trends are visible. Is there a monkey wrench
    in there somewhere? Probably.

    On to the Pokigron question...Maybe some have been improperly labeled, I don't know and I try to strike the 'ifs' from my useful info - meaning if I'm not sure how correct the info is, it isn't weighted as strongly as known info for forming an opinion. I do know that some people have gone there and collected their own, both in the US and across the pond. Photos of these exist and photos exist of other 'knowns' across the region - a small and imperfect sample, but it can help us trend. Even hobby info is somewhat useful, it can't all be lies or the 'known' info would make it stand out. Boas imported from Suriname/Guyana (mixed by collection practices/bag pullers/the great boa consperacy/whatever) still represent the region.

    If we were talking on the phone, would you be able to at least point out traits that trend from East to West (still talking shield area)? If not, and we are on the same page with the definition of region, nothing I can say or do will help until you search out the 'known' and put it on the maps.

  5. #65
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    I think our definition of 'region' is hindering progress...I said: I think I could do a pretty good job of putting 50 wild caught boas into their REGION -within the ''northern shield''. Region not locale.
    I got you now....I think, you are referring to regions such as southern Suriname/N. Brazil and Eastern Guyana/western Suriname eastern suriname/western French Guiana.

    I understand last nights statement and agree that one could possibly pick animals from regions....but 50...that may be a bet I would take

    If you are referring to them as regional then why bother making a point about "Locale" which is the very thing I have been saying all along, if you want to call "shield boas" a general term, I can see that but if I am understanding you correctly...you would be able to pick through the 50 and do a pretty good job at seperating by region. So now at this point we have gone from "shield Bcc" to western, eastern, northern, and southern "shield Bcc" correct?

    So now we are just a little less general and still far from what I would consider "locale"....I do like the idea and I think it would help narrow down the mislableing a tad....but people still want a Guyana

    Just for the record I am not saying that we should start calling them all shield Bcc, just that the labeling is all a farse that allows us to feel we are keeping something a little different and maybe a little nicer than the next guy. I have tried to obtain Suriname Bcc to the best of my knowledge and will represent any offspring as such.

    Humor me, You pick these boas for their regional phenotype...how do you represent them? Don't you feel this is already being done? If a boas is exported regionally then it makes sense that they could and do come from over the border but labaled as a "Suriname"...etc...etc

    I agree that there tends to be trends in regional areas but one atypical animals and that is all shot to hell, this debate will never end and can be a lot of fun hearing how others see and feel about things....thanks for your contributions.

    I am still up for that bet
    Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day drinking.

    Joel Thomas

  6. #66
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    I understand what you are saying now too...... I thought you were talking small locale regions.....

    I too can see trends... I know exactly what you are talking about..... and alot of these trends you have to piecemeal together by deduction.... but they are definitely there..... like tails getting shorter..... peaks getting longer and drippier to the east.... saddles getting blockier to the west....

    It's something that you slowly start getting after looking at thousands of pics of some of the more reliably classified boas....

    I think I could at least classify them by Northern shield / Southern shield.... mainly because this division makes the most sense to me because it separates two completely different types of habitat.... I would thinhk that would be a strong factor in morphology/pattern differences... Or take Vin Russos approach by calling them lowland and highland types.....

    Man I wish we had a picture book of BCC showing photos of boas with GPS locations....... Anybody want to work on getting a GRANT project to do a geodetic study???LOL

    I have been going round and around with this issue ... and have gone back and forth on how to label my boas when time comes to sell them......

    The problem is.... the general population of reptile buyers have this idea in their head that snakes come in with a "made in Pokigron" tag on them... They don't want to touch anything with less that a city designation in their locale description..... when the truth is.. the city only refers to point of export......... Really quite hilarious when you think about it.....

    SO maybe I will sell a batch of Surinames as this

    Baby Surinames dam: from a riverside Finca 325 meters south of 10th street Paramiribo Sire: from a farmers backyard at 223 west jungle street, exported in on 30 kilos of peruvian flake cocaine....

    and see how they like that....LOL....

    Funny thing is I saw a few people describing their BCC this was when I was a member at iHerp...... they would always insist they had papers with GPS locations and such..... These are the folks that make me really stick to my guns when it comes to localities..... But I guess I sould save that for other forums because people on RI are privy to the reality of export....
    [CENTER][SIZE="5"][FONT="Times New Roman"][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://www.surinamboas.com/"]Visit SURINAMBOAS.COM[/URL][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel_Thomas View Post

    If you are referring to them as regional then why bother making a point about "Locale" which is the very thing I have been saying all along, if you want to call "shield boas" a general term, I can see that but if I am understanding you correctly...you would be able to pick through the 50 and do a pretty good job at seperating by region. So now at this point we have gone from "shield Bcc" to western, eastern, northern, and southern "shield Bcc" correct?
    Hold up there turbo...I'm glad we got the definitions squared away (I was worried and thought both of you had lost your minds because the words were clear for me LOL - funny how that works), but being able to 'assign' a region and wanting them classified by region....not where I was going.

    Humor me, You pick these boas for their regional phenotype...how do you represent them? Don't you feel this is already being done? If a boa is exported regionally then it makes sense that they could and do come from over the border but labaled as a "Suriname"...etc...etc
    It's tough for me to humor you because I will not put myself in a position to create a label. I would not pair boas if one was labeled Suriname and the other Guyana. I'm not saying it's wrong and I wouldn't freak out over it, but I would not put myself in that position, it's as simple as that for me. As far as representing any boa, it should be with all the info available.

    I want the tightest/smallest location info I can get and I don't want to compromise. If I expanded my collection, the goal would be to buy young from wc parents that were caught near enough to each other that the pair could have happened in the wild. My world is flat too, but it's mine.

    You guys are fun, have a great day.

  8. #68
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    Turbo.....thats funny

    I wasn't thinking that you would actually want to label them yourself, just getting the kinks worked out of our discussion.....fun stuff.
    Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day drinking.

    Joel Thomas

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