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  1. #21
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    I don't think that breeding Amazon basin Bcc to shield Bcc would be very well recieved (Peruvian to Guyana)
    Probably not but like the retic example they are the same SSP..

    As for the retic thing yes they would all be retics but correct me if I am wrong but I believe all retics are classified under one scientific name with the exception of some of the dwarf maybe.
    So are a Peruvian and a Suriname..
    Just like a boa from Mexico is the same SSP as one from Colombia..

    On to more of my BS..

    There was mention of who ever bred the Argy to the Suri doing it for money, it would seem to me to get you the exact opposite less money.. The pure locality would have been more money.. they aren't doing it for a morph project there is no morph involved...

    It's a neat idea to have a locality pure animal but without some sort of true isolating factor NONE are really locality pure, not even in the wild.. Animals don't recognize government... They do it in the wild like animals.....

    As discussed before many popular lines of BCC are in fact not locality pure.. It seems like a slide rule to me..

    Python people think we are all nuts... I myself have spoke with folks about some boas I produce I even call crossed and I was stopped and asked "what do you mean crossed?" I told them Hog island and hypo.. They said well thats not really a cross both are BCI..

    We speak of certain areas having certain "typical" looks that come along with them, but that also falls into the BS category at some point.. We all know some localties have been sold as one or the other due to the typical look pulled out of the same bin full of WC babies...

    I like the look of locality specific boas but I think it's lame to put a label on them at some point.. What I mean by that is if someone bred a Suri to a Guyana boa they would ultimately eat a little bite of shit sandwitch on the price, regardless of how killer the boas looked... Even though they are the exact same SSP of boa... It's kinda dumb, when other are doing it without knowing they are because they bought their Guyana boa as a guyana, but what it really was was a darker Suriname with blunt peaks instead of pointy peaks...LOL...
    Ed Lilley
    www.constrictorsnw.com

    Check my available snakes at this link:
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    I rejoined facebook... I don't feel good about it...



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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanamaRed View Post
    There was mention of who ever bred the Argy to the Suri doing it for money, it would seem to me to get you the exact opposite less money.. The pure locality would have been more money.. they aren't doing it for a morph project there is no morph involved...
    If it's the breeder I'm thinking of, he frequently pairs up boas that are not paired up for the season. Say he has 3.2 Hogs and 2.3 Suri's, he'll pair the excess male Hog and excess female Suri - just to get a litter. By the way, the guy selling them on KS (the '07 animals) is NOT the breeder I'm thinking of - just so I'm clear

    Quote Originally Posted by PanamaRed View Post
    What I mean by that is if someone bred a Suri to a Guyana boa they would ultimately eat a little bite of shit sandwitch on the price, regardless of how killer the boas looked... Even though they are the exact same SSP of boa... It's kinda dumb, when other are doing it without knowing they are because they bought their Guyana boa as a guyana, but what it really was was a darker Suriname with blunt peaks instead of pointy peaks...LOL...
    I think the shit sandwich eating happens because when you pair a Suri and a Guyana, you just cut off a HUUUUGE chunk of the market that want an animal that is the product of 2 Guyanese BCC OR 2 Surinamese BCC - not one of each. The demand goes down, and therefore so does the price. I think the price drops not because it's taboo, but because it no longer fits with what customers want. But I agree, a shit sandwich will be eaten on that litter...

    Again, the MORE specific the locality data, the more people who are potential customers. Town > Region > Country > Area (ie, Georgetown > Demarara-Mehaica [the region where Georgetown is] > Guyana > Guyana Shield. Each time you get less specific, a little more of the potential client list gets whittled away and the demand drops a little more (along with the price).

    jb

  3. #23
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    I think the shit sandwich eating happens because when you pair a Suri and a Guyana, you just cut off a HUUUUGE chunk of the market that want an animal that is the product of 2 Guyanese BCC OR 2 Surinamese BCC - not one of each. The demand goes down, and therefore so does the price. I think the price drops not because it's taboo, but because it no longer fits with what customers want. But I agree, a shit sandwich will be eaten on that litter...
    The only reason the market has been cut short for it is because of the taboo placed on it... even though it's already being done by those who just don't know different...

    Again, the MORE specific the locality data, the more people who are potential customers. Town > Region > Country > Area (ie, Georgetown > Demarara-Mehaica [the region where Georgetown is] > Guyana > Guyana Shield. Each time you get less specific, a little more of the potential client list gets whittled away and the demand drops a little more (along with the price).
    While I agree that nailing it down to the most pinpointed area possible is going to draw folks, it also limits where you can get boas from to breed with that boa.. You get a pair, lose one 3 years down the road due to shit happening, and you can't find another like it for the life of you.... so the pinpointed area screws you in the end and your back to producing a country specific animal instead of a really tightened local specific boa..

    You know I'm throwing these out there just to represent the other side of the topic...LOL... but all the same, worth thinking about..

    This is why I dig morphs more.. Not that I don't like locality boas, you all know I do.. But with a morph I get to make my own rules and the only thing that screws me over is if I put the wrong boas together and make ugly instead of sweet looking.. Plus I can breed boas from different projects with each other to create new things or just different things.. I am not stuck with pairing only a small group, or having to be a one or 2 locality specific breeder.. I can keep the projects diverse and different keeping me just as interested as day one...
    Ed Lilley
    www.constrictorsnw.com

    Check my available snakes at this link:
    http://www.reptileinsider.com/classi...panamared.html

    I rejoined facebook... I don't feel good about it...



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  4. #24
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    You know what really blew my mind about this ad, the seller had a really nice male Bco, and I mean really nice. It was for sale before the crosses were posted as I recall.

    Ya, sub-species crosses are a four letter word in my book. So theres not too much more to say about that subject.

    As for breeding any Bci to any Bci, or Bcc to Bcc, I do not agree with that either among my personal projects. It is a known fact that the classification of boas is very flawed and is in need of ammendment. I feel that there are probably quite a few more sub-species than we realize. I think that the DNA analysis techniques that are being developed will provide a path to greater knowlegde. However it will probably be a very long time before any data will be uncovered and applied to classification.

    Everyone has a boundary set in their mind about what is right and wrong about this subject. Personally I feel obligated to these snakes to try my very best to maintain the wild type from as close of origin to the best of my ability. I do not frown upon what others do, this is just my preference.

    Different strokes for different folks!

    Chris

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanamaRed View Post
    While I agree that nailing it down to the most pinpointed area possible is going to draw folks, it also limits where you can get boas from to breed with that boa.. You get a pair, lose one 3 years down the road due to shit happening, and you can't find another like it for the life of you.... so the pinpointed area screws you in the end and your back to producing a country specific animal instead of a really tightened local specific boa..

    You know I'm throwing these out there just to represent the other side of the topic...LOL... but all the same, worth thinking about..
    I know you're just playing devils advocate, but I'll put my thoughts out there anyway. If I have a locality specific project that's super tight, and something happens to a founder animal and I can't replace it, I'll just switch the project up. In fact, I prefer not to repeat breedings just to maximize genetic diversity. So for me, it's not really an issue.

    For instance, Rose's mother was collected gravid at the Essiquibo river delta - that's pretty specific! Mr. Incredible's mother was collected along the Essiquibo river delta "region". When I produced with them in '07, I let folks know that. The collection info was very specific and I acquired them BEFORE "Essiquibo" became known for it's spectacular animals.

    The Rose litter from '07 included info about Rose, but the sire was only known to be from a female collected gravid in Guyana, so he's a Guyanese BCC. So that's how the offspring were labeled.

    The male she was paired with this year was collected along the Essiquibo coast, which isn't far from the delta. Definitely close enough that these animals could have met in the wild.

    So for me, no biggie to offer differing locality babies

  6. #26
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    Great post Chris!

    jb

  7. #27
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    On crosses, I don't necessarily see issues, until there is NO POINT in a certain project.

    For example, there is NO logical reasoning behind Occidentalis X Suriname BCC.

    I work with plenty of pure locales: Cay Caulkers; Corn Island; Nicaraguan; Sonora, Mexico; Liberia, Costa Rica; Panamanian; Bolivian amarali; Tumbes, Peru longicauda; Tarahumara, Mexico.

    Plenty of morph projects.

    And plenty of morph cross projects: Orangetail Hypo Leopards; Guyana Sharp Albinos; Hog Island Bloods; Colombian Motley X Sonoran Leopard; CA T+ Motley; any "Colombian" Hypos; Suriname Motley; nearly all my morph stock is mixed. Except for Anery Longis, Hypo Sonorans, Sonoran Leopards, Nicaraguan T+ and Hypo Nics. Everything else has something added somewhere.
    But, all of those crosses were done with a purpose in mind.

    Bob mentioned Het Blood X Corn Island. Not crazy. Heck, if he bred his Nicaraguan Blood boa X Corn Island, politically wouldn't they be Nicaraguan? Since las islas de maiz are part of Nicaragua. That's a great example for how political boarders mean NOTHING.

    I hate how the term locality is used in regards to boas. 99% of boas IMO are NOT locality specific.

    Boas like Liberia, Costa Rica imperator are locality specific, or Cay Caulkers. But a label like Mexican, or Nicaraguan does not make a locality specific boa. What "locale" is it from. Locale by definition lends itself to a specific place. A country defined by arbitrary political boundry is not a specific place. A valley, an island on a river, those are specific.

    Heck, before U.S. intervention, Panama was part of Colombia. That would be very interesting today with this discussion.

    Or you have countries like Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil, and Peru with multiple subspecies. Ortoni, longicauda, and constrictor in Peru. Why not breed them all together, they'd still be Peruvian ... stupid.

    Well, too many tangents. But in short, there's just no purpose of breedings like Bco X Bcc.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel_Thomas View Post
    I don't think that breeding Amazon basin Bcc to shield Bcc would be very well recieved (Peruvian to Guyana)

    As for the retic thing yes they would all be retics but correct me if I am wrong but I believe all retics are classified under one scientific name with the exception of some of the dwarf maybe.
    Retics have as much locality variation as boas...... even moreso when looking at insular races.....

    But people in their circles dont frown upon say a Java X Bali retic...... That's no different than breeding a Guyana to a Brazilian..... LOL..

    BUt people want the ILLUSION that their boas are "pure"... enev though the chances of getting a boa with precise provenance is very slim.....LOL

    As far as my own projects.... My Brazilians will stay Brazilian...... But my Shield projects will be integrated between Guyana and SUriname..... same snake.... My Suriname projects are driven by me trying to develop a certain look..... Designer redtails..... if you will......

    That's not to say I wont make an effort to keep some very clean lines to maintain bloodlines...... And I may do some breeding of North Brazilians into my Southern SUriname Females..... to achieve some different looks....

    Is this wrong..... I don't see it as wrong...... as long as I am clear about what is going on...... I don't know how well it will be recieved... but I have a feeling if it produces some amazing BCC that are very unique there will be a market......

    BCC is BCC..... LOL Peruvians really need a new ssp IMO thoiugh
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGilbert View Post
    On crosses, I don't necessarily see issues, until there is NO POINT in a certain project.

    For example, there is NO logical reasoning behind Occidentalis X Suriname BCC.
    What is the point in any cross? Whoever the breeder in question is crossed a couple of boas to see what would happen - same as any other person who decided to cross boas...

    How is it bco x bcc is pointless when it's ok to cross Colombian bci with some Central American bci? Does that mean Col. bci are seen as the same snake as a Central American boa because they are both bci? Observation tells me they are different.



    Screw the labels (bci/bco/bcc/bcl)...I want boas from adults that could meet in the wild.

  10. #30
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    What defines a locality?
    To me a locality is defined by it's characteristics pre-set by the herpetologist and biologist that said, "hey, this ain't a normal boa". I'm sure you can find Panamanians in Northwestern Colombia and vice versa. Political borders do not define. It is the snake itself and the scientific community.
    Now I'm a purist myself. I won't do a cross. But I am an American. Therefore what you do with your animals (as long as it is not cruel or negligent), is your business. No matter what sense anyone can make of it. Make all the crosses you want. But it is of the highest importance you better represent those animals with honesty and notify the customer what they are. Or you're no better than someone selling 1/2 dead animals.
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