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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyudsai View Post
    Here is the real essence of the matter...... Boas don't change morphology because of a political border..... THey change because a variation in their environmenta or ecoregion if you will.....
    I on't think anyone is disputing this. Large rivers, moutnain and desert ranges and in the case of most dwarf boas and pythons, island isolation. These with food availability can be the cause for structural, dwarfism and color/pattern variations.
    Not really rocket science. Mostly common sense.
    Taking Up Serpents

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boas4Life View Post
    Our own desire to have something different from the next guy is fueling this locality mess.
    ..
    To me, the majority of the BCC look the same, and probably are. I know I have said this a million times, "HIGHLY VARIABLE"


    IMO the 'idea' behind locality boas is the entire package - looks are only part of the equation...what about behavior/habits/temps/growth/maturity? People who don't or can't see differences (visual or otherwise) want to label things more generally and that's why the 'line of thinking' in the second part of the quote above is the problem - not the first.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bns View Post
    IMO the 'idea' behind locality boas is the entire package - looks are only part of the equation...what about behavior/habits/temps/growth/maturity? People who don't or can't see differences (visual or otherwise) want to label things more generally and that's why the 'line of thinking' in the second part of the quote above is the problem - not the first.
    Do share, I would love to hear about some of these other differences. Let's not be obvious and choose Amarali vs BCC , just stick to BCC. Bring It !
    [I]Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.[/I]

    [B]Ralph Waldo Emerson[/B]

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boas4Life View Post
    Do share, I would love to hear about some of these other differences. Let's not be obvious and choose Amarali vs BCC , just stick to BCC. Bring It !
    You think the ''majority of the BCC look the same''. I don't agree with this at all, so we certainly aren't going to agree on other differences.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bns View Post
    You think the ''majority of the BCC look the same''. I don't agree with this at all, so we certainly aren't going to agree on other differences.
    We don't have to agree , that's what makes the forum interesting. Seriously, what are your observations? Forget about the paint job.
    [I]Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.[/I]

    [B]Ralph Waldo Emerson[/B]

  6. #46
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    The only data I have even seen on boa movement in the wild was one boa that was tracked over a week period.. I can't say I remember all of it I think it was a boa from Belize.. They were calling this female chicken eater.. Many seem to think all CA boas are "dwarf boas" but this female was obviously large enough to eat whole chickens.. Kinda throws dwarf a curve it you ask me....LOL...

    During that period the boa moved 5 miles.. Thats a hole lot of movement if you ask me..

    I think the specific locality tags are a neat idea like I said before but drawing a circle on a map in a radius of however far any given boa may travel in a lifetime would be more accurate IMO.. Just seems like we are putting to much into a tag we don't know to be accurate 90% of the time.. Maybe a boa was collected in Guyana, great you have that info.... But maybe what you are missing is that it's mother was born in Brazil, or Suriname.. The info no one knows is the info that makes a really specific locality tag nothing more than a funny name to tag on top of sweet looking BCC.....

    Something else I have noticed from paying attention to the looks of what we'd consider a locality cross is say you were to take a boa from one area and breed it with a boa from an area say 1000 miles away the babies tend to look like locality boas from somewhere in the middle... I call that a trickle down effect look.. Meaning If I were able to take a "typical" looking boa from the wild one every 100 miles or so and line them up on a table (a very large table) you'd be able to see the look change gradually across that table...

    It kinda makes me wonder if those boas are really different and deserving of an SSP classification or if it is just nothing more than a look that helps them live in the environment, that weeds out the different looking boas on it's own.... Survival of the fittest for that area...

    To go back to the original topic I still can't see a reason to breed a BCO to a BCC, but it was enough to get us all thinking....
    Ed Lilley
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    I rejoined facebook... I don't feel good about it...



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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyudsai View Post
    THey change because a variation in their environmenta or ecoregion if you will.....
    I agree with this 100%, but I think the environmental range that people have currently selected is too wide. I believe that there are noticeable changes in smaller regions that shouldn't be ignored.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boas4Life View Post
    We all agree some of the boas need to be classified into sub species. We all agree that man made borders is not the way to do so.

    The question at hand is: What are the guidelines for "crossing" and "marketing" these animals and their offspring?

    Can port of export be accepted as actual locality data? or, do we need to have exact data to consider it reliable?

    I personally think the exporters are feeding us crap, and we believe it. They could care less where the snakes were captured. They just throw them in a big holding pen along with the others. They have more profitable animals to worry about like birds, and primates. Our own desire to have something different from the next guy is fueling this locality mess.
    I think the 'guideline' is to do what you will, but don't expect me to buy it. As I said before, I have no problem with people cross breeding, so long as there is a purpose behind it. I personally want locality data to be as tight as possible. But that's just my preference, I'm not trying to force it on anyone.

    And no, you can't trust the majority of the locality data. A lot of it is garbage and the majority of importers are just chumming us for money. But there still are trustworthy people out there. Granted, there are only a handful, but they still do exist. It really comes down to us to start demanding more collection data from our importers and forcing them to give us what we need.

    I know what some of you are thinking, "one person won't make a difference. They will do as they please regardless of what I tell them". I call that total bullshit. It's the same as saying, "one vote won't make a difference". It's a total cop out. It breaks down to this; either we start demanding more and force the importers to meet our standards or we have to lower our standards and eat the shit that they're handing to us. You just have to make sure not to complain when you follow the latter route.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    I on't think anyone is disputing this. Large rivers, moutnain and desert ranges and in the case of most dwarf boas and pythons, island isolation. These with food availability can be the cause for structural, dwarfism and color/pattern variations.
    Not really rocket science. Mostly common sense.
    Noone disputes this...... but they certainly dont take it into consideration when they classify things..... that would probably make too much sense...


    I have to agree about the exporters... they feed us lots of BS..... basically whatever the industry wants to hear... or whatever makes them a buck.... So many people put so much credence in CITES paperwork.... and dont even consider it could be completely fabricated by exporters......
    [CENTER][SIZE="5"][FONT="Times New Roman"][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://www.surinamboas.com/"]Visit SURINAMBOAS.COM[/URL][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
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  9. #49
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    Default comparison shot

    Just an interesting screen shot from a video based on Belize mainland boas vs insular Belize cay boas. These are adults, mainland on the left and adult cay boa on the right.



    They are both considered Belize snakes, both imperator, even though some argue that the Crawl Cay boas deserve a seperate subspecies.

    Chris

  10. #50
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    I think all island and dwarf boas should be classified as separate animals just due to the drastic changes in their behavior versus other boas.

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