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  1. #11
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    It's easier for us to recognize mutations in our own species... since we study human medicine extensively... and we have the ability to recognize mental and pathological problems since we are ourselves human....... But it is very difficult to recognize these things in a species that is not studied very thouroughly... Im not talking about a missing eye... or blindness.... Im talking about the hidden issues... like missing a certain enzyme.... or having a slight metabolic problem.. having coordination problems...... So really... we can't say really make a sound assessment on inbreeding any of these species... because we just don't have the ancillary knowledge necessary for that assessment.....


    You could also argue the whole insular boa population ideal.... but nature culls out the mutations.... by not allowing them to survive.... so in fact they might end up being healthier boas.... but since we help sustain all of our animals..... and they are basically nursed.... they have the ability to pass on these issues.....

    Reptiles even though more primitive than say man.... they are quite complex organisms.... and it doesnt take much to throw everything out of whack..... all it takes is one base pairing out of place during replication.... and catastrophic failure of some life system


    So here is my point.... inbreeding in nature... has a mechanism for stopping mutations from breeding...... since we don't have the capability to identify ALL pathogenic mutations..... then we don't have a sound mechanism to assure we are breeding genetically perfect boas
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyudsai View Post
    So really... we can't say really make a sound assessment on inbreeding any of these species... because we just don't have the ancillary knowledge necessary for that assessment.....
    The rest of your post reads like my end thought...but on this part we differ.

    I would say, if a naturally or not, introduced inbred colony is getting larger, stronger and living just as long or longer than their conterpart...that's all the assessment needed.

  3. #13
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    anytime you inbreed ANYTHING.... you increase the chances of expressing an undesirable or potentially pathogenic mutation to it's offspring ....... inbreeding ... should be done with care and restraint.....
    I think thats a good statement right there..

    In a captive bred situation Captive bred makes all the difference in the world.. Why because we make all of the offspring live where nature weeds out the weak and sickly.

    You take inbred animals who may look OK visually but maybe not so much internally, you keep inbreeding them over and over many of them become sterile or near it with little drive to breed. You can't blame them right? Maybe it's mother natures way of say don't screw your sister by her not being sexually attractive to a male boa.. Pheromones probably play a role here, I would imagine smelling their inbred sibling probably isn't going to float their boat so much....LOL... I know I have put certain boas together who were both ready to breed but not interested in each other.. Doesn't happen so often but it does happen, same boas paired with other boas get right to going at it...

    Now the sped up evolution of animals isolated say on an island.. Are they inbred? Yes they are, but the difference is there is no one there to baby the offspring along and make sure they start feeding and are fed every time they need to be. They either make it on their own, or die. Those that make it on their own are pretty obviously the ones that are healthy and have an advantage over the others that didn't make it. So the genes although based out of a small gene pool are selected naturally. The good ones live and the bad ones simply die or can't beat out the others when it come to be the top animal at breeding season.. they may try but can't beat the better boa...

    Myself I try and inbreed as little as possible because these animals live in a pampered captive situation and I can't always tell who are really the best animals to pair. I can pick out 2 that I think are good looking, but with inbred animals I surly can't say I would be doing right by the animals in anyway, so I stick to doing what I know will produce healthy offspring.. Breeding animals that are as genetically diverse as possible and pairing for looks secondary.. I still get smokin hot babies.. It may not be the whole litter, like some inbred litters, but I also get babies that rip the mice off the tongs every time... The other end of the spectrum babies that I really have to push to get them to feed... totally not interested in those....

    Not saying I have never inbred boas I have, but after doing it many times and looking at the results I know it's best not to do it where it is avoidable.

    I have had pleanty of morphs, and localities, just because you have an adult animal doesn't really mean it's going to be a good breeder.. the more inbred they are in my experiance the lamer they seem to be when it comes time to breed..

    We may think we are making something that looks better than a wild boa sometimes but you really can't beat the genes that make a wild boa survive to be a breeding adult..
    Ed Lilley
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bns View Post
    The rest of your post reads like my end thought...but on this part we differ.

    I would say, if a naturally or not, introduced inbred colony is getting larger, stronger and living just as long or longer than their conterpart...that's all the assessment needed.
    not a very scientific approach..... but if it makes them happy .. I personally will out cross everything..... Im just curious about this study..... did they quantify these results?? What were their parameters for health assessment?? Is this online somewhere .... it would make for an interesting read
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanamaRed View Post
    I think thats a good statement right there..

    In a captive bred situation Captive bred makes all the difference in the world.. Why because we make all of the offspring live where nature weeds out the weak and sickly.

    You take inbred animals who may look OK visually but maybe not so much internally, you keep inbreeding them over and over many of them become sterile or near it with little drive to breed. You can't blame them right? Maybe it's mother natures way of say don't screw your sister by her not being sexually attractive to a male boa.. Pheromones probably play a role here, I would imagine smelling their inbred sibling probably isn't going to float their boat so much....LOL... I know I have put certain boas together who were both ready to breed but not interested in each other.. Doesn't happen so often but it does happen, same boas paired with other boas get right to going at it...

    Now the sped up evolution of animals isolated say on an island.. Are they inbred? Yes they are, but the difference is there is no one there to baby the offspring along and make sure they start feeding and are fed every time they need to be. They either make it on their own, or die. Those that make it on their own are pretty obviously the ones that are healthy and have an advantage over the others that didn't make it. So the genes although based out of a small gene pool are selected naturally. The good ones live and the bad ones simply die or can't beat out the others when it come to be the top animal at breeding season.. they may try but can't beat the better boa...

    Myself I try and inbreed as little as possible because these animals live in a pampered captive situation and I can't always tell who are really the best animals to pair. I can pick out 2 that I think are good looking, but with inbred animals I surly can't say I would be doing right by the animals in anyway, so I stick to doing what I know will produce healthy offspring.. Breeding animals that are as genetically diverse as possible and pairing for looks secondary.. I still get smokin hot babies.. It may not be the whole litter, like some inbred litters, but I also get babies that rip the mice off the tongs every time... The other end of the spectrum babies that I really have to push to get them to feed... totally not interested in those....

    Not saying I have never inbred boas I have, but after doing it many times and looking at the results I know it's best not to do it where it is avoidable.

    I have had pleanty of morphs, and localities, just because you have an adult animal doesn't really mean it's going to be a good breeder.. the more inbred they are in my experiance the lamer they seem to be when it comes time to breed..

    We may think we are making something that looks better than a wild boa sometimes but you really can't beat the genes that make a wild boa survive to be a breeding adult..
    My thoughts exactly...... this kind of brings us to another question.....

    So what are the traits everyone looks for aside from the visual traits.... to determine if a breeder is in their prime???

    There are of course the obvious indications of health... like good feeding response.... and the overall poise of the boa..... but are there any traits that all of you look for that may exclude a boa from breeding trials???

    Being new to breeding boas... I would like to know of any issues that have red flagged boas in all of you all's experience

    For instance.... you could get into a dilemmna.... Say you have an amazingly beautiful Suriname..... that eats well and appears healthy... but shows some very odd coordination problems.... I have a boa that fits into this category......

    To breed or not to breed?? is this behaviour strictly an environmentally produced one... from maybe lack of climbing practice.... or do you err on the cautious side and exclude as not to pass this possible trait onto your bloodline.....
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  6. #16
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    My thoughts exactly...... this kind of brings us to another question.....

    So what are the traits everyone looks for aside from the visual traits.... to determine if a breeder is in their prime???

    There are of course the obvious indications of health... like good feeding response.... and the overall poise of the boa..... but are there any traits that all of you look for that may exclude a boa from breeding trials???

    Being new to breeding boas... I would like to know of any issues that have red flagged boas in all of you all's experience

    For instance.... you could get into a dilemmna.... Say you have an amazingly beautiful Suriname..... that eats well and appears healthy... but shows some very odd coordination problems.... I have a boa that fits into this category......

    To breed or not to breed?? is this behaviour strictly an environmentally produced one... from maybe lack of climbing practice.... or do you err on the cautious side and exclude as not to pass this possible trait onto your bloodline.....
    I think this is EXACTLY what we are missing here.. I have adult boas are they fit enough to propagate? We should all be asking ourselves this question and I think it is really a question we all know the answer to when it comes to any boa. If you have doubts the answer is no..

    This is part of why I want to change the design of boa cages to a taller cage with perches.. While I have never been to South America 90% of the time I see a boa on any nature program no matter where they are I see all kinds of localities on shows they are perched in a tree somewhere.. the other 10% of the time it seems they try and escape the film crew by heading up a tree.. I'd bet they would find many more boas on these programs if they looked up... So IMO we are robbing them of something that makes them comfortable, and keeps them fit using muscles they wouldn't scooting around on the floor....

    I bring that up because how do I know if a boa is fit if in comparison to a wild boa they are like a couch potato...LOL...
    Ed Lilley
    www.constrictorsnw.com

    Check my available snakes at this link:
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    I rejoined facebook... I don't feel good about it...



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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyudsai View Post
    not a very scientific approach..... but if it makes them happy .. I personally will out cross everything..... Im just curious about this study..... did they quantify these results?? What were their parameters for health assessment?? Is this online somewhere .... it would make for an interesting read
    It may not be all that scientific if someone is wanting a chemical breakdown and longevity charts.

    I don't know about the specifics on that lizard, I do remember coming across a great deal of info on them. It's neat stuff.

    Look at the brown tree snake...normally 3-6 feet in it's native habitat and 6 feet was uncommon. During the 1980's when the population peaked on Guam(like 3000 per square mile) they were finding individuals 10 feet long. Species showing rapid change in growth are not suffering. All of this from a stowaway.

    I'm not suggesting anyone go forth and inbreed...I, like the rest of you grew up learning inbreeding is bad. When I first started researching this subject, I thought it was always bad and that is simply not the case. If you look up inbreeding, you will find all kinds of negatives...If you look in nature, you will find something different.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bns View Post
    It may not be all that scientific if someone is wanting a chemical breakdown and longevity charts.

    I don't know about the specifics on that lizard, I do remember coming across a great deal of info on them. It's neat stuff.

    Look at the brown tree snake...normally 3-6 feet in it's native habitat and 6 feet was uncommon. During the 1980's when the population peaked on Guam(like 3000 per square mile) they were finding individuals 10 feet long. Species showing rapid change in growth are not suffering. All of this from a stowaway.

    I'm not suggesting anyone go forth and inbreed...I, like the rest of you grew up learning inbreeding is bad. When I first started researching this subject, I thought it was always bad and that is simply not the case. If you look up inbreeding, you will find all kinds of negatives...If you look in nature, you will find something different.

    Agreed.... but I think the brown tree snake is a bad example.... mainly because they were introduced on islands with an almost endless food source... they had so natural predators and their prey had no way of escaping them... so it's not really a great example for a genetic study


    This is a great topic... it's good to see people really concerned with producing genetically sound boas
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyudsai View Post
    Agreed.... but I think the brown tree snake is a bad example.... mainly because they were introduced on islands with an almost endless food source... they had so natural predators and their prey had no way of escaping them... so it's not really a great example for a genetic study


    This is a great topic... it's good to see people really concerned with producing genetically sound boas
    Look at it from a different way...

    The native population of brown tree snakes was limited in size due to competition, predators, available food, mother nature in control at it's finest...Turned loose on Guam with not one thing to assist mother nature in weeding out the 'weakness' and the result was 209 square miles conquered in a few decades by inbreds that doubled in size.


    Come on now, you can't tell me this isn't thought provoking, especially considering this is not atypical...

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanamaRed View Post
    Maybe it's mother natures way of say don't screw your sister
    Then the people in the southern states clearly don't listen to Mother Nature...


    There has been a LOT of research done on inbreeding depression on other species and I think it'd be really useful to read them. JSTOR has a giant collection of them, but you have to pay for it. I have unlimited access to their files, however, and if you guys find anything interesting that you want to read, send me a PM. I'll see if I can get it for you.

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