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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali View Post
    Then the people in the southern states clearly don't listen to Mother Nature...
    please tell me that was a joke... cause some people seriously think this statement is true and its not...
    Boas by Mel
    www.cajunconstrictors.com

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbraun3 View Post
    please tell me that was a joke... cause some people seriously think this statement is true and its not...
    LOL yes it was a joke. I put that smiley in there to make sure people didn't think I was serious.

  3. #23
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    Good one Ali -- you beat me to it . That's the quote of the month Ed .
    Just say "NO" to FACEBOOK !

  4. #24
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    How about dogs/cats. DNA testing shows that dogs came from wolves and nothing else. It use to be thought the fox or something of the like was added down the line and this is why we have so many different 'looks'. The reality is the variety in dogs is the result of inbreeding and not just a little... We're talking about inbreeding for mutations so many times that 'we' turned a wolf into an ankle biter... And today we hear 'breeders' looking for an unrelated purebred dog ''x'' to breed with their purebred dog ''x''. There are some good reasons for crossing 'lines' as in this case, but how is this unrelated? They came from the same family branch, their ancestors are the same inbred parents.

    Sure, there are some problems with some purebreds. A few of these problems have been around for a long time others pop up because of the current trend in dogs...breeding for looks...and by current, I mean considering the history of dogs - they use to work. Remove the work, add desire for looks, money, yeah you know what I mean. There are studies on inbreeding depression as it applies to dogs and other things, but consider this: There are hundreds of purebreds, each one inbred from the start when a new mutation showed itself. Then the 'new' one has mutation pop up from it and that line is inbred and so on for how many thousand times from the original inbred species starters is anyones guess. How is it that there are so few problems?

    I like to take the side of the discussion that I have been, but I could argue the other just as easily. For all our science, we know next to nothing about squat. The more we learn, the more questions we need to find answers for.

    As far as breeding reptiles in captivity: if you have an animal that is any way 'off', don't breed it. Someone earlier said, if you have doubts, don't breed it - and I agree. I've heard from a couple breeders that have been doing this a long time that they would not hesitate to breed siblings if the parents were unrelated.

    It's nice having a peaceful discussion on a topic that has a tendency to rile some folks.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bns View Post
    How about dogs/cats. DNA testing shows that dogs came from wolves and nothing else. It use to be thought the fox or something of the like was added down the line and this is why we have so many different 'looks'. The reality is the variety in dogs is the result of inbreeding and not just a little... We're talking about inbreeding for mutations so many times that 'we' turned a wolf into an ankle biter... And today we hear 'breeders' looking for an unrelated purebred dog ''x'' to breed with their purebred dog ''x''. There are some good reasons for crossing 'lines' as in this case, but how is this unrelated? They came from the same family branch, their ancestors are the same inbred parents.
    I have very vague understanding of genetics, so I'm only theorizing here, but I would think that over that long of a period the genetic pool would start to dilute somewhat. No two animals have identical genes, and I would assume that those small differences, over hundreds of years, would accumulate into something noticeably different.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bns View Post
    Sure, there are some problems with some purebreds. A few of these problems have been around for a long time others pop up because of the current trend in dogs...breeding for looks...and by current, I mean considering the history of dogs - they use to work. Remove the work, add desire for looks, money, yeah you know what I mean. There are studies on inbreeding depression as it applies to dogs and other things, but consider this: There are hundreds of purebreds, each one inbred from the start when a new mutation showed itself. Then the 'new' one has mutation pop up from it and that line is inbred and so on for how many thousand times from the original inbred species starters is anyones guess. How is it that there are so few problems?
    I guess 'few problems' is a relative term. I have a GSD, and just with them, there are an immense amount problems including problems with hips, elbows, liver, pancreas, shorter life-span, intestinal/digestive, etc. This is only for GSDs, other large-sized dogs have other similar problems as well. This isn't a total surprise though, as large dogs are some of the most inbred of animals.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali View Post
    I have very vague understanding of genetics, so I'm only theorizing here, but I would think that over that long of a period the genetic pool would start to dilute somewhat. No two animals have identical genes, and I would assume that those small differences, over hundreds of years, would accumulate into something noticeably different.
    I'm no expert. lol
    I hinted at it in my last post ''There are some good reasons for crossing 'lines' ''. So, yes I agree.

    We are learning that genes are far more ''plastic'' than written in stone. Genes are even changing by induced environmental factors in individuals during one lifetime and these differences are passed on. So, definitely inbreds removed by even a few generations are changing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ali View Post
    I guess 'few problems' is a relative term. I have a GSD, and just with them, there are an immense amount problems including problems with hips, elbows, liver, pancreas, shorter life-span, intestinal/digestive, etc. This is only for GSDs, other large-sized dogs have other similar problems as well. This isn't a total surprise though, as large dogs are some of the most inbred of animals.
    Relative, considering the amount of inbreeding, the long history of inbreeding and their origins in inbreeding it's hard to grasp (given how we are trained to think on the subject) that all dogs are not sickly and that all dogs are not carriers for all issues. Meaning these problems have shown up WAY down the line. So, how did these problems come about? Did the very first 'dogs/wolves' have the issues? Or did it develope in some change in genetics and get mixed in during outcrossing?

  8. #28
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    Ali, going back on the GSD having all those problems. You will find them far more in the German Shepherds born here in the States. Far, far less problems in Europe. Never had any problems with my DDR dogs. I think there is a lot more inbreeding, and breeding without thought of the dogs here in the States. Definitly not ment to include all, as there are some wonderful breeders here as well. This may be due largely to what peoples ideas of a GS should look like, so more are breed to meet those ideas.
    ed in Ohio

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by siberian View Post
    Ali, going back on the GSD having all those problems. You will find them far more in the German Shepherds born here in the States. Far, far less problems in Europe. Never had any problems with my DDR dogs. I think there is a lot more inbreeding, and breeding without thought of the dogs here in the States. Definitly not ment to include all, as there are some wonderful breeders here as well. This may be due largely to what peoples ideas of a GS should look like, so more are breed to meet those ideas.
    I think the highlighted applies much in the dog world and others. In the not so distant past and beyond (preteckno), only the strongest were allowed to breed. The concern for dogs was performance not looks. The weak would have only been a drain on resources.

  10. #30
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    This thread covered a lot of great points...sorry I missed this one while it was hot!

    Mother nature and evolution will find ways to allow life to become stronger and adapt to most gradual changes.

    It seems that boas are not nomadic in nature so I am thinking that wild populations are more inbred that we think....which explains the certain looks from certain areas.

    Fun stuff.
    Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day drinking.

    Joel Thomas

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