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  1. #1
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    Default Here is an interesting topic...input please.

    So lately there has been alot of talk about Parthenogenesis and Retained Sperm and such...the thing that I have wondered and would like to see what some of your thoughts are on this.

    I am just wondering how often you all think this has happened and lets just say that a female say a hypo was bred to something one year lets say a sharp albino to produce dh sharp suns....and lets say the next year the same hypo was bred to a vpi tpos or something clearly not a sharp...how often do you all think maybe some of those babies could have been the byproduct of retained sperm.

    What would you do if you were the breeder and down the road someone bought an animal that was sold to you as a hypo het vpi tpos but when bred produced a large litter to a homozygous t pos didn't produce a single T Positive.

    I have never heard of this happening but the recent talk has led me to wonder if it has happened to anyone and if so what side of the fence were you on. Were you the breeder or the consumer and how did things work out.

    Hopefully that bit of rambling made sense to some of you out there.

  2. #2
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    I see many people have read but no one has responded...

    I can see how this can be a touchy subject but some information on would be nice to hear about.

    If someone breeds two animals to another what if you get a split litter. It would just make some issues down the road unless it was a back up of the same phenotype...

  3. #3
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    Good questions. The information I can offer is that I don't take chances with the stored sperm problem occurring on critical breedings. When I make project hets and double hets, I use all virgin females.

  4. #4
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    Well, I know a big breeder who says that if you breed a female to a male, you should not breed that female to another male.

    Now, I will give you some examples of where it would be o.k.
    Lets say you breed an albino male to a het albino female and she has babies. The following year you breed the same female to a sunglow male, this is o.k. because even if the female did retain sperm the normal appearing babies would still be het for albino. Then the following year you breed the female to an albino motley, this is still o.k. because all normals are still het albino even if there are hypos in the litter from retained sperm.

    Now if you bred that female to a snow male you could still say the normals were het albino, but you really couldn't say that they were het anery, or double het snow. Even the albinos you couldn't guarantee being het for anery.

    I bred a double het sunglow to a virgin female that is het for albino, she had an awesome litter of sunglows, albinos, poss het albinos, and poss het sunglows. Two breeding seasons later I bred that proven breeder het albino female to an albino male and she had a very nice litter. Problem was, there was one sunglow in the litter. So, the sunglow should not have been there. All of the normals that were in that litter I had to sell as possible het albino even though I bred her to an albino male because the sperm that was retained for over two years was from a dbl het sunglow, so all the normals from that litter could only be poss het albino.

    I can guarantee you that there are snakes out there that are not what they were sold as because people switch males all the time. I am not sure anyone knows how long a female can retain sperm. I heard three years, but I wouldn't guarantee that is correct. I can say with 100% certainty from my own personal experience that a female boa can retain sperm for more then two years.

    I also know someone who has a female ball python that produced three years in a row without being with a male, but prior to those three years she had been with a male.

    Retained sperm probably happens quite often. If you use the same male each year you won't have to worry about it.

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the responses thats what I was thinking as well....I would be pretty frustrated if I paid top dollar for something to breed it and not get the desired outcome. It makes you re-think your breeding projects a little more when you try and understand the full potential of what could happen.

  6. #6
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    In the big picture it all boils down to,buy from people who you trust and you know are honest. I'm sure this has happend and youd think you'd hear about it more. The thing is, if the seller is a stellar buisness man ,then he's prepared to deal with any situation. If someone buys something be it highend or lowend and they breed it and without a doubt it was a problem with that animal you bought from said breeder that breeder needs to do what it takes to make that up to you. Thats gonna vary from situation to situation but thats what needs to be done. I don't fully agree with the only breed that male to said female or restrict it to the same kind of breeding but if your doing a highend project thats new or rare it might be a good Idea to use a virgin female to insure there's only one pappy. So, in certain situations I think it may be a good idea but like I said above....as a trusted breeder you need to do what it takes to keep every situation under control cause we all know your name is number one in this buisness. Just my dos pesos!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruben650 View Post
    In the big picture it all boils down to,buy from people who you trust and you know are honest. I'm sure this has happend and youd think you'd hear about it more. The thing is, if the seller is a stellar buisness man ,then he's prepared to deal with any situation. If someone buys something be it highend or lowend and they breed it and without a doubt it was a problem with that animal you bought from said breeder that breeder needs to do what it takes to make that up to you. Thats gonna vary from situation to situation but thats what needs to be done. I don't fully agree with the only breed that male to said female or restrict it to the same kind of breeding but if your doing a highend project thats new or rare it might be a good Idea to use a virgin female to insure there's only one pappy. So, in certain situations I think it may be a good idea but like I said above....as a trusted breeder you need to do what it takes to keep every situation under control cause we all know your name is number one in this buisness. Just my dos pesos!
    My opinion is, the stored sperm issue isn't about honesty, nor is stored sperm about being a stellar businessman. It is though, about being a competent breeder and a buyer who is competent enough to ask the right questions.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert View Post
    My opinion is, the stored sperm issue isn't about honesty, nor is stored sperm about being a stellar businessman. It is though, about being a competent breeder and a buyer who is competent enough to ask the right questions.
    I guess you didn't see my "Big Picture" and point then. Retained or "stored" sperm is gonna happen no matter what. You can't just breed one male to the same female all the time. I mean you can but really?? When retained sperm does happen and the buyer doesn't get what he's expecting, is a fly by nite breeder gonna fix that ???? Not most of the time. Is everyone gonna only buy from breeders that only breed one male to the same female?? NO! IMO....Yea, the issue isn't about honesty or stellerness but when it comes down to it, won't you feel better if it happened to you and you bought from a trusted breeder???? I think so.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruben650 View Post
    You can't just breed one male to the same female all the time.


    Interesting. Tell us why not, and please explain how you appear to believe one (assuming same) male to the same female is the prime solution? This is a rather complicated, artificial big picture being portrayed, given the presupposing what a breeder can and can't or shouldn't or should have to do. Regarding stored sperm, it appears what we're saying basically is the breeder can breed ignore this potential issue yet still be considered a 'trusted' breeder as long as he/she fixes his willy nilly breeding years later?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert View Post
    Interesting. Tell us why not, and please explain how you appear to believe one (assuming same) male to the same female is the prime solution? This is a rather complicated, artificial big picture being portrayed, given the presupposing what a breeder can and can't or shouldn't or should have to do. Regarding stored sperm, it appears what we're saying basically is the breeder can breed ignore this potential issue yet still be considered a 'trusted' breeder as long as he/she fixes his willy nilly breeding years later?
    Ha,everything I have to say is above. It's a matter of logic. I think we're both looking at this in different ways and really isn't worth getting into an arguement over which it already looks like it's going towards. Well,atleast on one end. So, i'm gonna agree to disagree....I guess???LoL I left my response as an opinion just like it clearly states in my post.

    Ok,
    morning update. After going back and reading everything again cause I was wondering why this kinda turned into a back and forth little battle between me and Desert I realize there were a few things I could've worded differently and other parts I got lazy on and should've explained my reasoning for. So, in short..I totally agree with what you said first Desert. I think what I was trying to say was that it would be nice to be able to do that all the time but that would mean people would have to buy multibles of the same females to make all the hets they want to make. Like if you had a VPI and BWC male and wanted to make Motleys het VPI one year and Motleys het BWC the next with her. Ideally you'd want to have 2 Motley females to do so with but a lot of people don't have the cash or space to house or fund that. I personally would like to have 2-3 of every important female I need for my projects but i'm running in to the space factor(and ca$h!) right now and don't know when i'm gonna be getting a bigger place. So,sooner or later people are going to have to use a femlale for a couple of different projects,be it bigger or smaller breeder. With this in mind,when I buy expensive stuff or really important stuff to my projects I make sure I buy from trusted people and friends that I know will take care of the situation "if" I don't get the results i'm looking for. This is just me and my opinion on the subject though. Some people may have more strict rules with their buying I guess but really,how many bigger/respected breeders do you think are out their that haven't used the same females to make there new combos with different males? I'm willing to bet all or most have. Does that make them all willy nilly breeders? Oh, and is the "is" at the end of the sentence below supposed to be an isn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Desert View Post
    Interesting. Tell us why not, and please explain how you appear to believe one (assuming same) male to the same female is the prime solution?
    Just wondering cause I thought thats what you were trying to get across. Hopefully this better explains my thoughts on the subject. I'm just trying to look at it in a way that I think "IMO" is more realistic.

    Ruben Michel.

    Whats your name by the way Desert? No biggie if you wish to remain anonymous. I just like to know who i'm talking to.

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