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  1. #11
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    I will post something on this topic later this week. I am about to leave for a meeting in Washingtin DC and will not be back until late Wednesday. If I get a chance I will try to post before then. Interesting topic.

    Warren
    Dr Warren Booth/USARK director

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruben650 View Post
    Ha,everything I have to say is above. It's a matter of logic. I think we're both looking at this in different ways and really isn't worth getting into an arguement over which it already looks like it's going towards. Well,atleast on one end. So, i'm gonna agree to disagree....I guess???LoL I left my response as an opinion just like it clearly states in my post.
    Ruben, it appears you are inferring my call for precision as being argumentive on a personal level, so I'll assure you that isn't the case.

    What interests me in this topic specifically, is the criteria I see used in defining ideals that are looked for in a breeder. A poor anology is, eating a meal at a nice restaurant, for example. Two thirds of the way through the plate of food, the customer discovers some stomach-turning deposits of old food stuck to the plate that obviously were not previously cleaned from someone else's meal. Seems logical the cook had to have seen those deposits when he loaded food on that bare plate, and if he didn't see them, one can only wonder what other ineptness is occurring on his watch. Now, this anology is poor because we dont usually go around querying restaurants about dirty plates before we eat their food. However, salient questions to query breeders with beforehand, can be learned.


    What doesn't seem logical to me is, focusing the entire matter on whether the cook 'fixes' the meal ( that the customer is already 2/3'rds eaten read raised a snake to breeding age)

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert View Post
    Ruben, it appears you are inferring my call for precision as being argumentive on a personal level, so I'll assure you that isn't the case.

    What interests me in this topic specifically, is the criteria I see used in defining ideals that are looked for in a breeder. A poor anology is, eating a meal at a nice restaurant, for example. Two thirds of the way through the plate of food, the customer discovers some stomach-turning deposits of old food stuck to the plate that obviously were not previously cleaned from someone else's meal. Seems logical the cook had to have seen those deposits when he loaded food on that bare plate, and if he didn't see them, one can only wonder what other ineptness is occurring on his watch. Now, this anology is poor because we dont usually go around querying restaurants about dirty plates before we eat their food. However, salient questions to query breeders with beforehand, can be learned.


    What doesn't seem logical to me is, focusing the entire matter on whether the cook 'fixes' the meal ( that the customer is already 2/3'rds eaten read raised a snake to breeding age)
    I see what your saying and will admit I did kinda take it as argumentive at first but then I reread my stuff this morning and can also see where I may have been coming off in certain ways also. Which I also didn't mean for it to come off like that. I tried to rewrite it better this morning and realized you were looking at the thread at the same time I was trying to fix my writings. So I don't know if you got to see the revised version of my ramblings yet. I see the point your making i'm pretty sure. I just hope the way I tried to explain what I was trying to say makes sense as I find it easier to talk in person or over the phone about certain stuff cause for some reason when I try to explain stuff sometimes in writing, it never comes out right. No matter how hard I try! It's funny Brandon posted about this cause I was thinking about this very topic a few days ago. Anyways,good topic folks and no hard feelings at all Desert. Have a great Monday all!

  4. #14
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    I am just wondering how often you all think this has happened and lets just say that a female say a hypo was bred to something one year lets say a sharp albino to produce dh sharp suns....and lets say the next year the same hypo was bred to a vpi tpos or something clearly not a sharp...how often do you all think maybe some of those babies could have been the byproduct of retained sperm.
    More often than people think....

    I have had females here drop litters from the previous seasons breeding a few times. I try to only mix and match on litters that will be obvious anymore like last year was a super hypo and the next time was a motley. Recessive traits I stick with what was bred last time or maybe add something different that is a no brainer, like last time a het female was bred by a male albino and this time it was a sunglow..

    One female had a babies from breeding 2 years before.. So I don't know how long you'd really have to wait, but I'd rather stick to being on the safe side of things..
    Ed Lilley
    www.constrictorsnw.com

    Check my available snakes at this link:
    http://www.reptileinsider.com/classi...panamared.html

    I rejoined facebook... I don't feel good about it...



    [/I]

  5. #15
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    you can't go around labeling litters poss het if the female or male used was homozygous. i have a female salmon jungle het albino from a salmon jungle to albino jungle breeding and the mother of that litter was once paired with a double het sunglow, but i will assume my female is het albino because that's how i bought her and you can't go around labeling everything as a poss het because of previous pairings, can you?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruben650 View Post

    Ok,
    morning update. After going back and reading everything again cause I was wondering why this kinda turned into a back and forth little battle between me and Desert I realize there were a few things I could've worded differently and other parts I got lazy on and should've explained my reasoning for. So, in short..I totally agree with what you said first Desert. I think what I was trying to say was that it would be nice to be able to do that all the time but that would mean people would have to buy multibles of the same females to make all the hets they want to make. Like if you had a VPI and BWC male and wanted to make Motleys het VPI one year and Motleys het BWC the next with her. Ideally you'd want to have 2 Motley females to do so with but a lot of people don't have the cash or space to house or fund that. I personally would like to have 2-3 of every important female I need for my projects but i'm running in to the space factor(and ca$h!) right now and don't know when i'm gonna be getting a bigger place. So,sooner or later people are going to have to use a femlale for a couple of different projects,be it bigger or smaller breeder. With this in mind,when I buy expensive stuff or really important stuff to my projects I make sure I buy from trusted people and friends that I know will take care of the situation "if" I don't get the results i'm looking for. This is just me and my opinion on the subject though. Some people may have more strict rules with their buying I guess but really,how many bigger/respected breeders do you think are out their that haven't used the same females to make there new combos with different males? I'm willing to bet all or most have. Does that make them all willy nilly breeders?
    Interesting questions, Ruben. Perhaps breeding could be characterised as willy nilly, if females or males are being bred for the purpose of keeping them working any given year because in that case, introducing different males towards the goal of simply creating litters, seems likely. However, your question is, should we consider it willy nilly breeding to use potentially sperm storing females on new projects.

    So the question is, is discretionary breeding potentially compromised, and for whom. Is the best logical approach to exceed one's own resource abilities by casting the issue to the wind ie hoping for the best, doing the used female combo breedings and possibly having to remedy 'fix' it for the customer at potentially high cost to both parties years later. Is not being able to afford more space, caging or animals sufficient reason to make this a sound course of action. Or, is it far more logical to plan a course of definitive avoidance of these kinds of problems at the beginning, within the sphere of one's resource abilities. I suppose these questions would need sorted by each discriminating person when he or she makes a purchase, or does the breeding.

    Myself, I'm using all virgin females for my new recessive projects because I strongly prefer to not waste years of effort holding animals only to find out I don't have what I thought I had. Unless I'm very pleased with the breeding results and repeat a particular breeding, those females I use to make hets from, even nice as they are and all the time spent holding them, will probably become hand-me-down sales to other good homes, because they have filled the measure of their purpose in the project. For me, that's the hard part, making and following through on those kinds of decisions.





    Oh, and is the "is" at the end of the sentence below supposed to be an isn't?

    It was meant to be an 'is' but my point is moot since you've rewritten and cleared up my question. My name is Brad.

  7. #17
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    So my basic question for Brad and Ruben is this:

    Say you bred a Motley to a sharp male one year, the female never took... The next year your male T+ was ready to breed and you really wanted to breed him to that female motley.. Are you comfortable doing it?

    My point is even if you get it in your head that if I am wrong I'll replace them, or refund the $$.. What happens when folks say I have 2 years into this animal, spent a lot of money for a baby and now it should be worth X amount more. Offering a refund just doesn't cover it at some point.

    I really don't think there is a right or true wrong in this situation (other than just saying I can't help you).. Retained sperm is one thing but say it was a parthenogenic birth, and 5 females born of a pastel female bred to a VPI T+ were really normals, and the rest were 100% hets.. Now that might be out there but would be a screwed up situaion to be in...LOL....
    Ed Lilley
    www.constrictorsnw.com

    Check my available snakes at this link:
    http://www.reptileinsider.com/classi...panamared.html

    I rejoined facebook... I don't feel good about it...



    [/I]

  8. #18
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    A couple breedings I have done, keeping in mind the possibility of retained sperm.

    1) Leopard male X Virgin OT Hypo. Straight forward, virgin female, all are sired by the Leopard. Next time she is bred to a Motley. Those that are not Motley could in theory be from left over Leopard sperm, no problem because they get sold as Normals or Hypos. If the person gets lucky down the road, congrats to them.

    2) Leopard X Virgin het Leopard female. Got the virgin girl again, her babies were sired by the Leopard. Next time, breed her to a Hypo Sonoran. I'm only trying for possible hets here. So if there is Leopard sperm left, then they simply get 100% hets where they were gambling on a poss het, just ups the odds. Any Leopards born in this litter would be known.

    Both of the above scenarios involve a year between litters (provided those two girls drop healthy litters this year).
    Any boas that I bred last year that did not produce, were paired to the same male this year.

    Costa Ricans are kept as a single pair, makes it easy.

    I benefit from a relatively small collection and a fairly focused project progression in mind from the time of purchase of given boas. I want to make DH Sharp Leopards and DH Sharp Bloods. Well, there are separate female Sharps for each project. No worry of a customer wanting a DH Sharp Blood and actually getting a DH Sharp Leopard, or vise-versa. The Sharp female that was bred to a Leopard can later be bred to a Hypo Leopard.

    I remember reading somewhere about the longevity of sperm inside a female. It was something from either Vin Russo, Tracey Barker, or Warren Booth. But I can't remember the time frame, nor the source of the information.

  9. #19
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    1) Leopard male X Virgin OT Hypo. Straight forward, virgin female, all are sired by the Leopard. Next time she is bred to a Motley. Those that are not Motley could in theory be from left over Leopard sperm, no problem because they get sold as Normals or Hypos. If the person gets lucky down the road, congrats to them.

    2) Leopard X Virgin het Leopard female. Got the virgin girl again, her babies were sired by the Leopard. Next time, breed her to a Hypo Sonoran. I'm only trying for possible hets here. So if there is Leopard sperm left, then they simply get 100% hets where they were gambling on a poss het, just ups the odds. Any Leopards born in this litter would be known.
    Thats the kind of stuff I do Chris.. Only mix it up to a point it will be safe no matter what.. If someone gets lucky there is no complaint to have..
    Ed Lilley
    www.constrictorsnw.com

    Check my available snakes at this link:
    http://www.reptileinsider.com/classi...panamared.html

    I rejoined facebook... I don't feel good about it...



    [/I]

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanamaRed View Post
    So my basic question for Brad and Ruben is this:

    Say you bred a Motley to a sharp male one year, the female never took... The next year your male T+ was ready to breed and you really wanted to breed him to that female motley.. Are you comfortable doing it?

    My point is even if you get it in your head that if I am wrong I'll replace them, or refund the $$.. What happens when folks say I have 2 years into this animal, spent a lot of money for a baby and now it should be worth X amount more. Offering a refund just doesn't cover it at some point.

    I really don't think there is a right or true wrong in this situation (other than just saying I can't help you).. Retained sperm is one thing but say it was a parthenogenic birth, and 5 females born of a pastel female bred to a VPI T+ were really normals, and the rest were 100% hets.. Now that might be out there but would be a screwed up situaion to be in...LOL....
    All are good points fellas and I guess some of the points made by Brad and Ed I thought about but maybe not as much as I should. How about this situation. Say you put a Sharp in with a Motley but after two weeks you don't see any action. So,you put your T+ in to see if he wants some. He starts going to town and soon you get an ovulation. So now she's knocked up. What happens if that Sharp actually did copulate one nite when you were sleeping and not able to check on them and left a little deposit but by morning he was back to the other side like he never moved? I ask this cause i've seen more then once where a breeder comes on and says..."WOW! I only had this guy in with her for one nite just to see what would happen but took him out the next morning cause I decided to wait till next season." In that particular case it worked out for the breeder cause he got what was planned. My point is, how many times do you think this could've happend out there where someone had one recessive trait animal in at one point but never saw any action so he puts another different recessive trait animal in there and see's action and assumes that the ovulation he's getting is from the second male but really could've been from the first male that likes the late nite action and then goes back to the other side in the morning?

    There are so many different situations like these out there that can happen. Some that i've thought about and some I didn't fully realize until this thread. Cause there are sneaky breeder males out there that only "work" in the wee hours of the nite. All good points people and i'll definitely be planning way more ahead in the breeding seasons to come.

    How about when you get slug litters? Or litters that are 90% slugs with a couple of stills or lives? Is it still the best idea to either repeat the same breeding next year or breed a co-dom to her next year if you bred a recessive to her the year she slugged out? Would it make a difference if it was a full slug litter or if it was a 90% with a few babies? I would think a full slug litter would be better in that case but is it? So many new and fun things to think more about!! I guess the point I was trying to make as far as a "honest breeder will make it right in the end" wasn't to make things like this sound ok to do. It was more of a "if" this happened a trusted breeder will or should do whatever it takes to make it right in the end, where a dishonest breeder will just tell you to go screw yourself. So,in the long run it's better to buy your highend stuff from trusted people but I guess in the new "big picture" it's really up to you as a buyer to ask important questions like this to see if there is a chance there may be something else in your new boas you may not want or be expecting. Like Brad said above. I'm interested to hear peoples thoughts on the slug questions!

    Oh,and nice to meet you Brad/Desert. Well I didn't just meet you but nice to know your real name.

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