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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel_Thomas View Post
    I can not speak for JB and if I know him at all you will see a very well thought out reply from him soon if he does not beat mine to the punch first...again I am sure JB will elaborate.
    You ain't bullshittin'

  2. #12
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    Great subject for discussion, David!

    I don't currently own any imports, but I have seen many import BCC advertised, that I was definitely interested in purchasing. I decided to hold off at the time, as I did not have the proper caging, extra space, etc needed for a WC boa.

    I think caring for imports can be done correctly, as others have said, if the proper commitment to veterinary care is made for elimination of parasites/other health concerns, etc. I would certainly feel much better about taking a baby or very young (less than 6 months old) import, than a yearling or older...as older animals will have lived in their wild environment much longer, and will be affected more being removed from it.

    If I ever did obtain a subadult/adult WC import, the caging would be substantially larger and more elaborate than for a CB animal...(many hiding places/lots of climbing furniture, etc.). IMO, that would be the only way to ethically keep an older WC snake, of any species.

    For me, one of the main reasons I was drawn to ads for imports, is some of those animals have absolutely killer patterns, that I was not seeing in any of the CB animals available. Many of the CB babies and adults today, seem to be leaning toward these super clean, light, almost 'pastel' looking BCC, with perfect symmetrical patterns, and zero freckles...they have none of the qualities I love in BCC...the ones with the wow factor, are almost entirely imports, unfortunately...

    CB reptiles would be my first choice (regardless of the price difference), but if a WC import has a unique look I can't find elsewhere, I might take it.
    Heather Martin

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel_Thomas View Post

    I would love to see a BCC or a BCI association of sorts be formed to use a poll of oinions that would set standards based on color contrast pattern and maybe a few other desirable traits that would be considered for importation into the states....but would that mean all the less desirable ones would go oversees or back into the wild...what would that do to the wild population?
    Joel, I think this might be a sticky issue...it would come down to, who decides what is 'desirable'...might seem simple at first, but I imagine it would be much more difficult in reality, LOL

    Not trying to jump on you; just wanted to make the point that not everyone has the same idea about what makes a great BCC animal.


    There are a lot of BCC posted on this forum and others, that seem to be considered 'high end', amazing, highly coveted animals (judging from the responses to the threads)......those same animals, wouldn't even get a second glance from me...




    The boas below, are three Suriname I have owned, the last female I still have. I absolutely love the pattern on these boas, they have all the great qualities I want in BCC...to this day I really regret selling the other two...
















    But there are many today in the BCC world, who feel that BCC like these, should be tossed out the back door of the WC holding facilities, because they are 'ugly' and 'undesirable' and shouldn't be imported. There also seems to be a strong feeling that animals with this look shouldn't be bred in captivity either. It would be a very sad day when wonderful BCC like this (WC or CB) could no longer be obtained in the US


    BCC with speckling, dark color, aberrant patterns, and inconsistent/missing peaks like the ones above, may not be considered mainstream or 'in'; but there are keepers/breeders out there who really desire that appearance.
    Heather Martin

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilovemylizard
    It would be a very sad day when wonderful BCC like this (WC or CB) could no longer be obtained in the US


    BCC with speckling, dark color, aberrant patterns, and inconsistent/missing peaks like the ones above, may not be considered mainstream or 'in'; but there are keepers/breeders out there who really desire that appearance.
    Agree 100%.

    Although the animals in my collection would indicate otherwise, I really LOVE some highly speckled and smudged/dirty BCC and especially aberrant patterns. But I also love the very colorful, pastel-like BCC that I have with nice consistent patterns. But I only have room for a decent sized breeding group of one and it's obvious which I chose.

    If there were ever a mantra for boa enthusiasts, it would be:

    "If I had more space, money, and time, I'd have that!" And in the case of the boas you posted Heather, that mantra absolutely applies!

    Great boas! Thanks for sharing them!
    jb

  5. #15
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    I would like to see some GPS data on every single WC Boa.
    That would make my day.

    If we were majority, we could force importers to provide specific data on catchplace. To bad we're not.

  6. #16
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    Couple of thoughts.
    First off, when talking WC , are we talking WC or Farmed. Just wondering. To me it seems funny how so many of the newer (last few years) seem to come in with a look more of the trends of the time. Could it be that some (possibly many) of the "farmers" are actually breeding for the "big dollar ones", or ones that we want. If this is the case, then isnt it more a case of importing new bloodlines rather than getting a WC.

    Also, very concerned over the size. When Gus got a big WC ( belive it was a male?) awhile back, I belive he even made the comment thjat he didnt like getting one that big but had to as to secure the deal. Belive it came around and adapted fast (probably due in a large part to his experience).

    Final thought, just wondering if "locals" need more brought in than many of the "morphs" do so the lines don't become so narrow.
    ed in Ohio

  7. #17
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    Thanks everyone for there replies . I have definitely learned some good stuff today - and still have some questions as well .

    JB - I think that you are the reason that my computer is so slow ! LOL .

    Colombia: 18,000 Boa Constrictors (farmed live young)
    Nicaragua: 15,000 Boa Constrictors (farmed live young)
    Guyana: 2000 Boa Constrictors (live wild caught)
    Surinam: 1010 Boa Constrictors (live wild caught)
    Holy Crap -- If every female Boa produces an average of 20 babies . then -

    900 Colombian litters were imported

    750 Nic litters

    100 Guyana litters

    50 Suri litters

    1800 litters in all ? Every year ?

    I would think that it would greatly help our market crisis if that number was substancially cut (primarily in the BCI's) . With that many Colombian imports , I would think that there'd be more WC ads then captive bred ads in the classifieds .
    JB - you make it seem as though hardly any Guyanans are available , but 12-14 years ago there was a local pet store selling them as well as me seeing them in reptile shows. Classic looking Guyanas - and I don't live in a big town . I would think that there are plenty of them around if I could find them so easily before the days of the internet .

    I guess that in my small mind , I picture these thousands of Boas (big and small) being hunted and captured , placed into unsuitable conditions, shipped in unsuitable conditions,many dying along the way, and sold into a place that's trying to figure out how to cope with the populations that are already here. I've always pictured in my head that this whole side of the industry is shady, and something that needs to be opposed. Just in my head . I admittedly don't know much about it at all. I don't know all of the countries that ban exporting, but I would definitely support importing those locals that are in real need of it. BTW , I have also owned a few import animals , and loved them . But I would've preferred them to be from CBB animals.
    Just say "NO" to FACEBOOK !

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgans Boas View Post
    I guess that in my small mind , I picture these thousands of Boas (big and small) being hunted and captured , placed into unsuitable conditions, shipped in unsuitable conditions,many dying along the way, and sold into a place that's trying to figure out how to cope with the populations that are already here. I've always pictured in my head that this whole side of the industry is shady, and something that needs to be opposed. Just in my head . I admittedly don't know much about it at all. I don't know all of the countries that ban exporting, but I would definitely support importing those locals that are in real need of it. BTW , I have also owned a few import animals , and loved them . But I would've preferred them to be from CBB animals.
    I really don't think you're assumptions are too far off. In any industry there's the good and the bad people, and there definitely ARE some people who do treat the animals very poorly.

    As far as your original post, if your concern is for the "freedom" of the wild caught animals, then the whole point becomes moot. The reason for that is because regardless of whether the animal was captive bred and has never even seen its natural habitat or whether the animal was taken from the wild and away from its home, being trapped in a cage is still being trapped in a cage. If a person is made a slave or he's born into slavery, they're still a slave and can't be considered otherwise. Yes, I know. That is a bit of an over-inflated analogy, but you get the point.

    Now on the other hand, if your concern is for damage to the wild population and habitat, I think you can make some serious arguments against importation. You have to understand that removing a snake from a certain locale doesn't only affect that specific species but also the other animals within the same habitat. It will effect the animals that prey on that boa species and cause them to decrease in population, while it will cause other animals that were prey items to the boa to increase in population. Both of these cause-and-effects will negatively impact the environment. This is similar to introducing a species of animals to a foreign environment, it WILL have detrimental effects.

    I think if you really need to decide whether or not to start exporting wild animals out of a specific country, it's essential to look at their population growth and decay. You have to remember that population growth and decay behave exponentially in nature, meaning that small changes can have adverse effects and can be detrimental to ALL inhabitants of that country. Obviously, "small changes" is a relative term that has to be compared to the total population of that animal, but if its not carefully considered it can definitely get out of hand.

    As far as my own personal opinion on the subject, I think it's absolutely okay to take in a wild caught animal as long as there is a justified motive and you accept every responsibility for that animal.

    The moral of the story is that there is good and bad in everything and no situation is ever black or white. We live in a gray society and it's really a personal decision whether or not we do certain things.

    - Ali

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilovemylizard View Post
    But there are many today in the BCC world, who feel that BCC like these, should be tossed out the back door of the WC holding facilities, because they are 'ugly' and 'undesirable' and shouldn't be imported. There also seems to be a strong feeling that animals with this look shouldn't be bred in captivity either. It would be a very sad day when wonderful BCC like this (WC or CB) could no longer be obtained in the US
    I'de love to meet some of these people , I know a whole bunch of die hard BCC fanatics , and every one of them would appreciate those boas. Like JB said , it's not that people don't appreciate all shapes and sizes , these boas get REALLY BIG and most only have space to keep whatever their favorite look is. If I were a millionaire and had a staff I'd own atleast 1.1 of every type of boa on the planet. But that's not the case , so I pick what I like the most as do most keepers. Don't get it twisted, if there's one thing you can say about the BCC guys , it's they are VERY passionate about boas, all boas. Speckly , thin saddles, big tail, no tail, striped, no pattern , clean, red, pink, orange, yellow, gold, purple... I could go on forever and ever and ever.

    What makes my blood boil is when people refer to CBB litters like they are some sort of morph , there's no big difference, nobody has created a litter so far from what is imported. In one litter you can have animals that grow up to be 10 different colors, have ten different tail lengths with varying degrees of red, and 10 completely different patterns. HIGHLY VARIABLE , people always seam to forget this.

    If I mixed this boa in with a group of F3 Florida redtails stock animals , NOBODY would be able to tell the difference , it has all the characteristics I would associate with the FLR animals , and guess what ? It was imported this year.. 3 generations of captive breeding and you get the same results from mother nature.



    Getting off my soapbox now .. sorry I used your photo Andy

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali View Post
    I really don't think you're assumptions are too far off. In any industry there's the good and the bad people, and there definitely ARE some people who do treat the animals very poorly.

    As far as your original post, if your concern is for the "freedom" of the wild caught animals, then the whole point becomes moot. The reason for that is because regardless of whether the animal was captive bred and has never even seen its natural habitat or whether the animal was taken from the wild and away from its home, being trapped in a cage is still being trapped in a cage. If a person is made a slave or he's born into slavery, they're still a slave and can't be considered otherwise. Yes, I know. That is a bit of an over-inflated analogy, but you get the point.

    Now on the other hand, if your concern is for damage to the wild population and habitat, I think you can make some serious arguments against importation. You have to understand that removing a snake from a certain locale doesn't only affect that specific species but also the other animals within the same habitat. It will effect the animals that prey on that boa species and cause them to decrease in population, while it will cause other animals that were prey items to the boa to increase in population. Both of these cause-and-effects will negatively impact the environment. This is similar to introducing a species of animals to a foreign environment, it WILL have detrimental effects.

    I think if you really need to decide whether or not to start exporting wild animals out of a specific country, it's essential to look at their population growth and decay. You have to remember that population growth and decay behave exponentially in nature, meaning that small changes can have adverse effects and can be detrimental to ALL inhabitants of that country. Obviously, "small changes" is a relative term that has to be compared to the total population of that animal, but if its not carefully considered it can definitely get out of hand.

    As far as my own personal opinion on the subject, I think it's absolutely okay to take in a wild caught animal as long as there is a justified motive and you accept every responsibility for that animal.

    The moral of the story is that there is good and bad in everything and no situation is ever black or white. We live in a gray society and it's really a personal decision whether or not we do certain things.

    - Ali
    Animal importation is the least of a boas problem.... Many more boas are skinned every year than exported. alive.. and the habitat these boas live in is decreasing each year... if anything... importation may preserve something that may eventually disappear
    [CENTER][SIZE="5"][FONT="Times New Roman"][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://www.surinamboas.com/"]Visit SURINAMBOAS.COM[/URL][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/CENTER]

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