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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boas4Life View Post
    I'de love to meet some of these people , I know a whole bunch of die hard BCC fanatics , and every one of them would appreciate those boas.
    I wasn't meaning to imply that all people who work with BCC believe this way...but I recall over the years far too many discussions about the future of the locality market, pricing, etc. where production in captivity of 'sub par' BCC and importation of 'low end, ugly' BCC were brought up again and again, with an appalling amount of disdain for the boas with those appearances .

    For people who supposedly love working with the locality, it was pretty obvious they really only liked and valued a very particular phenotype of BCC, not the locality itself (which would have included those 'ugly/sub par' animals).

    Preferring a specific look is one thing, but when people get to the level of open disgust/degrading an animals worth as a living thing, simply because they don't care for its appearance, that's a step too far, IMO.
    Heather Martin

  2. #22
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    And Joel Thomas, wanted to add that none of my comments were aimed personally at you, (about deciding what BCC should be bred/imported)...you were simply the first person in this thread to bring up that issue...

    Sorry if it came off that way...that was not what I intended...
    Heather Martin

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilovemylizard View Post
    And Joel Thomas, wanted to add that none of my comments were aimed personally at you, (about deciding what BCC should be bred/imported)...you were simply the first person in this thread to bring up that issue...

    Sorry if it came off that way...that was not what I intended...
    Gothcha...no worries....just bring on the topic
    Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day drinking.

    Joel Thomas

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyudsai View Post
    Animal importation is the least of a boas problem.... Many more boas are skinned every year than exported. alive.. and the habitat these boas live in is decreasing each year... if anything... importation may preserve something that may eventually disappear
    I agree. I was just listing the negative side-effects of importing, but that is not even close to being the main threat to boas or other animals. Poaching is a HUGE problem all over the world...a lot of zoos and private organizations collect breeding pairs to prevent a total annihilation of a species. In my opinion, poaching outweighs the majority of the other threats towards wild life.

  5. #25
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    I received a PM from someone thanking me for putting the numbers out there that I did because it helped them to understand the situation regarding imports/exports.

    I, in my incessant need to type, wrote up a reply that delved into the numbers a little further and I thought I'd share most of what I wrote to that person, with everyone in case they were interested. So here it goes!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    A note of importance is that Guyana exports 2000 boas. The US doesn't import 2000 boas. Those boas go all around the world. Some here, some there, etc.. Granted, usually the US is the largest single importer of those animals. But, since the numbers put things into perspective, here are some more to think about.

    There are 300,000,000 people in the US. Based on the census stats of '07, there are roughly 111,111,000 households. The last statistic I saw was that approximately 4.7% of US households have reptiles and reptile keepers rank third in the nation behind dogs and cats. That's 5,222,217 homes. By going to reptile shows (and this is where the numbers become guesses off the top of my head), approximately 15% of the sales are boas, that's 783,332 boa keepers or wanters in the US.

    Rounding down a little ... So now there are 750,000 boa keepers looking for boas or they already have boas and don't want more. Another off the top of my head guess is that 5% of boa keepers keep or would like to keep BCC, (damn morphers! lol, wait, I own morphs... anyway) that's 37,500 people. Guyana shield BCC are probably more popular as a whole than Amazon Basic BCC so we'll guess that 2/3 of the BCC keepers are Guyana shield keepers meaning there are 25,125 Guyana shield BCC keepers out there. Some folks own one animal, others own multiple. My guess is the majority of people own one animal, but there are several with multiples but we'll say the average is 1 snake per Guyana shield keeper. (I'm completely making this stuff up off the top of my head, lol). That means there is a demand in captivity for 25,125 Guyana shield BCC at any given time, including what's in captivity.

    Of the 3000 animals exported from Guyana and Suriname every year (btw, the quota rarely gets filled 100%), lets assume that 2/3 come to the US, so 2,000 boas. Let's assume that care for imports has risen dramatically in the last few years and 75% of the boas imported survive (yeah right) that means our country imports 1,500 BCC that survive and get sold to a caring home. That leaves a demand for 23,625 Guyana Shield BCC at any given time. Let's assume they all live to be 20 years old (again, YEAH, right) that means 5% die each year and so there's a recurring demand of 1,181 more boas that are needed from captive production yearly. Captive production at best equals a couple hundred Suriname and Guyana BCC so let's be lenient and say 1,000 baby BCC are born each year in the US. That's still not enough to fill demand!

    Now that I think about it, how the hell is our hobby growing? lol I was being conservative with those numbers. Anyway, that was all just to illustrate that there truly is a demand for the animals. Most of the imports go to BIG places that import thousands upon thousands of animals of all kinds yearly. These places do shows all over the US as well as supply other guys in the industry with thier imports and one by one, these imports end up in the hands of private owners. You'd be surprised how fast some fly off the shelves. I've been at an importers facility when their shipment lands and there are guys waiting who take multiple animals just for their collections.

    The truth of the matter is 75% of these imports don't survive like I indicated above, it's probably more like 25% because most of these guys don't give a rats ass about treating internal parasites properly. They want them to survive long enough to produce a litter.

    I agree about the needed slowdown of BCI. It really is sad that we're taking 33,000 animals that could have been in the wild out of Colombia and Nicaragua YEARLY! If we're using the same math, let's assume 2/3 come to the US, that's 22,000 animals that are imported (these are healthier as they're farmed and so probably have a true survival rate of around 75% or higher). If they weren't imported at all, demand for a US CBB animal would STRONGLY spike and prices would rise immediately. This would REALLY put the morph market in its place too because it would probably be more profitable to breed normals than it would certain low end morphs.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, there ya go. Hope that was a little thought provoking! Is it too early? Probably...

    I think looking at these numbers, especially the roughly 5.2 million (Yeah, MILLION) homes that have reptiles, really opens our eyes to how truly small the participation rate is on forums. There are a LOT of people who've never even heard of kingsnake, or reptileinsider, etc... A LOT! Even though they should because those two sites are the biggest, and the best (respectively, hehe) out there!

    By the way, as I indicated in that message, a LOT of those numbers were pulled off the top of my head so don't go ape shit correcting me!

    jb

  6. #26
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    WHew! That was an eye full

    I pulled some numbers out of...well somewhere...on the quota numbers, do you know if that number changes?

    That is a lot of thought you put down JB, I appreciate all your effort and thought provoking input. I think we need to get on down there and cherry pick a few imports for our collections....that would be a blast!

    Seriously I still have an issue with the huge numbers of BCI being imported...how long can those numbers be kept up with out doing irreversible damage to the ecology? if that has not already been done?

    We (the community) need to think about this: If left in the wild how many of those animals actually make it to breeding size/age? I would say fewer than we think, now by removing so many when does the ecology show signs of damage caused by the absence of these animals? BY the time we see the threat is it too late to reverse it?

    This is a legitimate question...why do we need to import 33,000 BCI? I am not trying to stir anything up I am just curious to understand that question
    I can certainly see the want for BCI that would be unique or have certain traits that would be different to what is currently here, but the "normal" market has got to be mostly isolated to pet stores, which I still see them being sold for $150.00 in my area...couldn't we fill that market and relieve some pressure off the farmed animals being taken?

    Now on to The BCC, I am not a fan at all of taking sub-adult and especially adult boas from the wild to export...that just seems fundamentally wrong to me. If you remove an animal that was healthy and genetically superior enough to reach breeding size out of the environment I believe that is taking the very animals that were the ones of perfect design to pass on genes to keep the population strong and healthy.

    If we continue to export BCC I would like to see it kept to the youngest animals, I have always felt this way, but have owned sub-adult and large adults in the past and as I looked over the amount of scars on these boas and think about how tough their lives were and to be able to reach the size they were....that was a feat! Those scars and evidence of hard living are also what helped form my previous opinion on the ethics of importing them.

    Some more fuel for this post...thanks all who contribute, one fun hobby!
    Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day drinking.

    Joel Thomas

  7. #27
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    This is a legitimate question...why do we need to import 33,000 BCI? I am not trying to stir anything up I am just curious to understand that question
    Good question . I think it would be nice to see that number significantly dropped .

    Now on to The BCC, I am not a fan at all of taking sub-adult and especially adult boas from the wild to export...that just seems fundamentally wrong to me. If you remove an animal that was healthy and genetically superior enough to reach breeding size out of the environment I believe that is taking the very animals that were the ones of perfect design to pass on genes to keep the population strong and healthy.
    Another good point that I agree with . Thanks Joel , David
    Just say "NO" to FACEBOOK !

  8. #28
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    Quote:
    This is a legitimate question...why do we need to import 33,000 BCI? I am not trying to stir anything up I am just curious to understand that question
    Good question . I think it would be nice to see that number significantly dropped .
    Quote:
    Now on to The BCC, I am not a fan at all of taking sub-adult and especially adult boas from the wild to export...that just seems fundamentally wrong to me. If you remove an animal that was healthy and genetically superior enough to reach breeding size out of the environment I believe that is taking the very animals that were the ones of perfect design to pass on genes to keep the population strong and healthy.
    Another good point that I agree with . Thanks Joel , David
    I think it is pointless profit mongers at this juncture to keep importing Colombian boas in those numbers.. There are plenty of boas produced in captivity here to supply more than the demand as it is CBB Normals wholesale at $30-35 each... So what is a WC (Farm born) worth $10?? Other than a real odd ball WC who would want to buy them? I'll pass on the extra parasite load thank you...

    It's about like importing normal Ball pythons at this point... These imports with low value probably have about a 25% chance at living.. due to the prices making them easy to pick up on a whim...

    I also don't care for the idea of importing the sub adult and adults.. Even a WC baby.. Some people can care for these animals but not to many.. It's extra work to keep them alive period. Not to mention the fact as stated above that these are the ones that were making it on their own in the wild.. Also these animals know freedom in their native land, I think it's wrong to take that from so many if we don't need to. A captive born boa knows nothing but it's captive environment, so living in your home is normal to them..
    Ed Lilley
    www.constrictorsnw.com

    Check my available snakes at this link:
    http://www.reptileinsider.com/classi...panamared.html

    I rejoined facebook... I don't feel good about it...



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  9. #29
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    I've only read the OPs post so this may have already been said. Consider those who have established a business exporting Boas and other reptiles. If we suddenly ended that channel then what are they to do. Do you send them money to buy them out, provide alternatives for their farms or some other form of assistence or knowledge so they can now fend for themselves? In the end, we're trying to get by, some do it by utilizing raw materials that are inate and others use those that are living. We all piledge the Earth of it's bounty, none are excluded from this reality. Including those that may feel others need to find an alternate means of income.

    In addition, how would that be any different then PETA and HSUS telling us domestically that we can't transport them interstate or send them out of the country. In the end, many make a living from other life forms. This has been the case since the first human threw a spear. Boas are not different then the other life forms we utilize for our daily sustenance. Be it for food, leather goods or the pet trade. If one were to take a stance against ending all imports then they would need to take the same stance that we domestically shouldn't be keeping our beloved Boas. Otherwise, in my eyes, we'd be hypocrits for supporting one but not the other. Not intended to offend the OP or other's views but sometimes we place ourselves in a microcosm and forget the struggles that others meet to have the same basic necessities we take for granted.
    Garriga Morphs

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GARRIGA View Post
    I've only read the OPs post so this may have already been said. Consider those who have established a business exporting Boas and other reptiles. If we suddenly ended that channel then what are they to do. Do you send them money to buy them out, provide alternatives for their farms or some other form of assistence or knowledge so they can now fend for themselves? In the end, we're trying to get by, some do it by utilizing raw materials that are inate and others use those that are living. We all piledge the Earth of it's bounty, none are excluded from this reality. Including those that may feel others need to find an alternate means of income.

    In addition, how would that be any different then PETA and HSUS telling us domestically that we can't transport them interstate or send them out of the country. In the end, many make a living from other life forms. This has been the case since the first human threw a spear. Boas are not different then the other life forms we utilize for our daily sustenance. Be it for food, leather goods or the pet trade. If one were to take a stance against ending all imports then they would need to take the same stance that we domestically shouldn't be keeping our beloved Boas. Otherwise, in my eyes, we'd be hypocrits for supporting one but not the other. Not intended to offend the OP or other's views but sometimes we place ourselves in a microcosm and forget the struggles that others meet to have the same basic necessities we take for granted.

    I have to agree with you..... CITES sets up quotas based on research,,, and I fell like as long as the rules are followed,,,,, then they have just as much of a right to make a living as anyone else....

    This kind of reminds me of another forums that bashes any people in the business that resells imports/ farm bred animals... and wholesale CB herps.... and even gave them the derogatory name "Flippers"..... It is such a double standard... since they would have never gotten any of their reptiles in the first place if people werent "Flipping" Reptiles in the past..... They bash these guys on the forum .. then turn around and invite them on their radio show ...lol

    ANyway.. again.... if people are ethical... and keep the animals healthy... then they have the same right as anyone else to make a living......
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