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  1. #21
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    By the way, having Warren on this forum is AWESOME! It's like having our own personal reptile version of the bat signal!

    I see the word "science" in a post and I just imagine Warren popping up out of nowhere like... "did someone say 'science'? I've got you covered!"



    Thanks for being here Warren!
    jb

  2. #22
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    What was that about science???? lol.

    One thing JB> I am not aware of any papers published, I should do a thorough lit review. What I am talking about is work that has taken place in my lab. We are about to ramp it up and bring in many more animals.

    Warren
    Dr Warren Booth/USARK director

  3. #23
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    Went back and read the posts.
    This turned into a great thread.

    Any way, I would find a great 2012 male and pair them up in the fall of 2014.

  4. #24
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    Alex Burgos

  5. #25
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    Ya but then again after reading warrens comments one could argue that if the female isn't ready then she won't ovulate and take to the breeding, so if you try and she takes them she is ready if she doesn't than she will wait. And also warren stated that the wild females are much smaller at the same age so if they were the same size in the wild would they breed at that age? That's impossible to tell, it's like comparing apples to oranges, what needs to figured out is whether it is age or body mass/ size that should determine breeding in the wild or in captivity. IMO
    DownSouthSnakes

  6. #26
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    In the wild they are not breeding at that younger age, as age is related to size very well in the wild. Those that do ovulate in captivity at the younger age show signs of significant physiological stress and organ failures. One aspect that I am planning to add to this is telomeric fraying. We die because the telomeres at the ends of our chromosomes fray, and essentially the chromosome unravels. This happens with age. It also happens with physiological stress. It cannot be repaired as during these periods of stress the telomerase enzyme has reduced function.

    I started to think about this topic a few years ago when i hear Jeremy Stone say that in his opinion females have three reproductive events in their lifetime before they should be retired. I completely disagree with this. Its all related to diet, reproductive events and their frequency, and recovery after parturition. An example, the female that I had that produced the first anerythristic Sonorans bred 4 times for me. I then sold her when she was around 12 years old. She went on to breed another for times for the next owner and died late last year at around 19 years old (from a lung condition I believe. I think she caught a severe lower respiratory infection and was not treated).
    She was not bred until she was 5.

    Warren
    Dr Warren Booth/USARK director

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aburgos View Post
    What else is there to believe in???

    Warren
    Dr Warren Booth/USARK director

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren_Booth View Post
    I started to think about this topic a few years ago when i hear Jeremy Stone say that in his opinion females have three reproductive events in their lifetime before they should be retired. I completely disagree with this. Its all related to diet, reproductive events and their frequency, and recovery after parturition. An example, the female that I had that produced the first anerythristic Sonorans bred 4 times for me. I then sold her when she was around 12 years old. She went on to breed another for times for the next owner and died late last year at around 19 years old (from a lung condition I believe. I think she caught a severe lower respiratory infection and was not treated).
    She was not bred until she was 5.

    Warren
    I heard that as well and I recall hearing Jeremy state that in his recent DVD. He also stated that if you didn't breed your boas at all you would have a long term pet. Jeremy stated that putting the boas through and the breeding process reduces their life span and based on what you just said I am inclined to say you agree based on telomeric fraying. In other words breeding brings on early ageing/degeneration. In the DVD Jeremy advocates the same breeding style that Anthony mentions he practices of the females at 2.5 years of age.

    In Rich Ihle’s 2003 Barker DVD he stated he used to breed females at 2.5 but “not so much for that anymore as that was when I only had a couple of boas”. Yeah I watched these DVDs a lot lol.

    I’d wager the 2.5 is practiced a lot more by cutting edge breeders but so far only Jeremy, and now Tony have gone public with it as far as I know.

    I think input from Jeremy would be very valuable for he has the time in to show longevity rates for boas that he must have been breeding at 2.5 years for the past couple of decades.
    Alex Burgos

  9. #29
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    I think that everything we need to know is right there in Jeremy's video. First breeding at 2.5 years old. Second breeding at 3.5 or 4.5. Third breeding at 5.5 or 6.5 and then she dies early. Probably at less than 10 years old.

    My guess is that Anthony picked up his breeding regimen either directly or indirectly from Jeremy.

    By the way, I'm not attacking Jeremy, he's a great guy and I like him a lot. Nor am I attacking Anthony. Never met him but he seems like a great guy too.

    Just tossing out my ideas.

    jb

  10. #30
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    My point is, why not breed them at 2.5 years if they have the proper body composition? Argue about health if you want, but nobody can really prove that this has adverse health affects. You think these boas dont breed at 2.5 years in the wild? Males don't just avoid them because "she's too young" (even if she says shes 18). If the size/muscle mass is there, I say go for it. Young females have done me EXTREMELY well, 4 for 4 in the last 12 months, going to be 5 for 5 in a few weeks.
    Because it is not natures way of perpetuating a species, much better for the males to be concerned with larger more mature females that will produce larger healthier litters with less stress on the breeding female.

    I also believe that wild females would not be putting off pheromones to even attract males when they are only 2.5 years of age.

    You have been very sucessful with your numbers Tony but I think in the long run you will find that will not be the best for your girls but then again with some of the morph stuff I guess you just have to power feed them to reach size as quick as possible to maximize their breeding "window" not my approach to keeping boas but everybody does it different.

    Not judging and only assuming but I am guessing that with "some" morph keepers that growing those girls big and fast to breed that longevity is not really a concern because we have to make our money while we can as most projects loose value pretty quickly and it does not matter if the female is still breeding at 10 12 years of age.

    Im not saying ALL 2.5 year old females qualify, I look for certain things. I usually want my girls 15lbs or better, but fat is no good, I want them to have a good muscle tone to them, with almost the "loaf of bread" shape.
    I am very conservative when it comes to growing my boas so I can not even imagine 15lbs at 2.5 years of age and that the female is going to have solid muscle mass and shaped like a loaf of bread....really? Show me a picture of one of those females, I bet they are pinhead animals.

    It is so hard to not come off like a jerk with written word but understand this is not an attack on morphs or anyone personally as I do not have the right to publicly judge people but i will express opinions.
    Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day drinking.

    Joel Thomas

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